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MIR 3D
Last post Tue, Nov 16 2021 by VirtualVirgin, 63 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Aug 12 2021 20:53
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post
I have a question for MIR 3D:

Since one highlight is an easier preset management, I would like to know if it will be possible to have different output settings for the instruments, i.e. reverb length and volume of the secondary microphone. At the moment I have several MIR Pro instances each with different settings, but it would be nice to have all instruments in one instance.

In short: Yes, MIR 3D allows for "tabbed" instances with completely independent settings.

Quote:
It seems poor Dietz has to do some more MIRx settings! :D

 ohhh nOOOOOOoooooooooooooo .......!!!!!! 

;-D

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Aug 12 2021 21:15
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 809
Hehe +1
Posted on Mon, Aug 23 2021 16:23
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 453

I have read this thread with great interest. All  things that are mentioned about MIR 3D, are very promising!
I was wondering: are there plans to integrate MIR 3D in the Synchron Player with the Synchron-ized Libraries ? 

Posted on Mon, Aug 23 2021 17:18
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Thanks for you interest in MIR 3D! There are no plans for an immediate integration of the two products, but never say never... ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Sep 28 2021 11:07
by Amit Katzengold
Joined on Wed, Nov 11 2020, Posts 3

Will Room Packs bought for MIR PRO be available in MIR3D as well?

Posted on Tue, Sep 28 2021 13:42
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: Amit Katzengold Go to Quoted Post
Will Room Packs bought for MIR PRO be available in MIR3D as well?

All existing RoomPacks have been reworked for MIR 3D. MIR Pro RoomPacks won't do, as they neither support Higher Order Ambisonics nor the three-dimensional Venue Maps.

As far as I know there will be very friendly upgrade paths for MIR Pro Venue licenses you already own.  :-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Oct 16 2021 12:15
by JBuck
Joined on Sun, Jun 09 2019, Posts 34

Will we be able to load an existing MIR Pro project with MIR 3D, like what we can do in VE Pro when moving from Vienna Instruments Player to VI Pro? If not, that is a shame as I have spent many hours setting up templates for all the MIR Pro Room Packs. I am not sure I am looking forward to setting up 60 + instruments again for 8+ Room Packs.

Posted on Sat, Oct 16 2021 13:25
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

No need to put shame on anyone. ;-) As a matter of fact we spent countless hours to make sure that existing MIR Pro setups will load without additional user interaction, while sounding as close to the original mix as possible (usually within a +/- 1 dB). All that without sacrificing any of the new possibilities.

If you need bit-identical recalls you can always re-install the (then) legacy version of MIR Pro.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 01:41
by JBuck
Joined on Sun, Jun 09 2019, Posts 34

Hi,

How is the decorrelation of the original signals actually improved by the new engine?.

P.S. Great news about not needing to set up 480 instruments again. Few!

Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 07:52
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: JBuck Go to Quoted Post
How is the decorrelation of the original signals actually improved by the new engine?

By an sophisticated procedure developed for VSL by the ingenious minds of the Institute of Electronic Music and Acoustics (IEM) at the University of Graz, raising the original 1st order Ambisonics IRs to Higher Order Ambisonics (HOA) up to 7th Order, if I remember correctly. However, we stick to 3rd order because otherwise the sheer amount of convolutions would overwhelm even the most powerful modern CPUs with only a few instruments. 8-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 13:38
by JBuck
Joined on Sun, Jun 09 2019, Posts 34

Sorry but what does 'raising' mean? Is this an improvement to an algorithm or a signal path or...???

I just ask because before I spend another 1000 euros on a program I would like to know a bit more about it.

Otherwise I will download the trial and be like 'oh yeah, that sounds way better' even though the human ear might not be capable of discerning the difference between 1st and 7th order let alone 1st and 3rd order.

I assume there are audio examples of results from experiments by IEM. Any chance of we could hear such results?. I searched the link you provided but came up with nought. 

Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 13:59
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: JBuck Go to Quoted Post
I searched the link you provided but came up with nought.

Well, that's probably because this proprietary development is on the cutting edge of technology. :-) Examples will be published once MIR 3D is ready for release.

Thanks for your patience!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 15:09
by JBuck
Joined on Sun, Jun 09 2019, Posts 34

So why provide the link?.

64 bit audio engines were cutting edge too (on paper) though they had zero audible benefit.

Posted on Tue, Oct 19 2021 15:39
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: JBuck Go to Quoted Post
So why provide the link?.

To make sure the credit goes to the right people.

Quote:
64 bit audio engines were cutting edge too (on paper) though they had zero audible benefit.

If you want to work in stereo only, you'll mainly benefit from the new preset system, improved usability, and of course compatibility with new operating systems, CPUs, and GPUs. If you're working in surround, the sonic advantage will be enormous. If you're working in 3D, then there's no comparison anyway.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2021 17:27
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 323

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

If you work in stereo only, you'll mainly benefit from the new preset system, improved usability, and of course compatibility with new operating systems, CPUs, and GPUs. If you're working in surround, the sonic advantage will be enormous. If you're working in 3D, then there's no comparison anyway.

Looking forward to tabbed instances with different reverb tails, in particular! 

Also, Dietz, a question (that you've probably answered before, apologies in advance):

The secondary mic is a fantastic, demonstrably beneficial feature, but I've always wondered...why stop at a secondary?  Why not a third or fourth to simulate outriggers and whatnot?

Posted on Fri, Oct 22 2021 17:55
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: Seventh Sam Go to Quoted Post
Looking forward to tabbed instances with different reverb tails, in particular! 

So do I, but it looks like we have a shortage of available developers on the VSL software team ATM. 8-/ ... the conversion of all VSL products to iLok-based copy protection seems to be much more challenging than expected. *sigh* ... it doesn't look like the targeted release date of "later this year (2021)" is realistic anymore.

Quote:
Also, Dietz, a question (that you've probably answered before, apologies in advance):

The secondary mic is a fantastic, demonstrably beneficial feature, but I've always wondered...why stop at a secondary?  Why not a third or fourth to simulate outriggers and whatnot?

Well, this sounds like a logical development, but actually it defies the whole idea of Ambisonics, which always works on the assumption of _one_ listener's position. This is less of an issue when we work in 1st Order Ambisonics by means of virtual microphone capsules (as we do in MIR Pro), but it gets confusing quickly as soon as we introduce the so-called "coefficient-based" decoding in HOA (Higher Order Ambisonics), which looks at a room as a holistic entity that gets "projected" by loudspeakers. 

So, in a nutshell: We don't have plans to offer more Microphone Positions than two at the same time. But the good news is that you will be able to "roll your own" by using more than one instance of the same Venue, since MIR 3D allows you to set up multiple "tabbed" rooms.. ;-)

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Oct 23 2021 13:39
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 315

Outriggers would have been really nice, I agree! But I'm totally fine with the sound as it is. :)

Concerning multiple / tabbed instances: I have another idea, but don't know if this an option. I would like to have an export feature which allows you to save your settings in an “IR” file (per instrument) and import it back into VI Pro, so something like MIRx. With this, you could have so many different settings.

Posted on Sat, Oct 23 2021 16:45
by daviddln
Joined on Tue, Feb 25 2014, Posts 218

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

If you want to work in stereo only, you'll mainly benefit from the new preset system, improved usability, and of course compatibility with new operating systems, CPUs, and GPUs. If you're working in surround, the sonic advantage will be enormous. If you're working in 3D, then there's no comparison anyway.

Hi Dietz,

Does it mean that there won't be sonic improvements when working in stereo?

Best,
David

iMac 21.5, i7 4770S, 3,1 Ghz, 16 GB RAM
Komplete Kontrol S-88, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre
Logic Pro X, Finale 26
Posted on Sun, Oct 24 2021 01:19
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 323

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

Well, this sounds like a logical development, but actually it defies the whole idea of Ambisonics, which always works on the assumption of _one_ listener's position. This is less of an issue when we work in 1st Order Ambisonics by means of virtual microphone capsules (as we do in MIR Pro), but it gets confusing quickly as soon as we introduce the so-called "coefficient-based" decoding in HOA (Higher Order Ambisonics), which looks at a room as a holistic entity that gets "projected" by loudspeakers. 

So, in a nutshell: We don't have plans to offer more Microphone Positions than two at the same time. But the good news is that you will be able to "roll your own" by using more than one instance of the same Venue, since MIR 3D allows you to set up multiple "tabbed" rooms.. ;-)

Kind regards,

From what (little) I've read of how Ambisonics works, that makes sense.  I always wondered why the secondary mic is wet-only, and I suppose that's why! 

Luckily, those options are more than plenty to create enough of a spatial image to match with multi-mic libraries (at least in stereo, never worked in surround or 3D).  The way I've come to see (and primarily use) MIR Pro is to "stamp" or "print" a multi-mic spatial impression onto dry signals, whether Vienna Instruments, third party stuff, or live recordings.  Dry signal approximates spot mic, main mic approximates the "decca" (although I know it's actually coincident, I just mean the main array that's usually a decca tree in multi-mic libs), and secondary mic approximates far/ambient/hall/whatever mic.  Dialing in that mix and allowing the engine to take care of all the nitpicky stuff that would normally take multiple plugins, lots of panning, and general head-scratching is *such* a time saver.  What's more, the IRs are locational to an absurdly detailed degree, meaning that solo instruments never sound like they are coming from center stage that's panned left or right, but from actual stage right stage left upon "recording". 

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

So do I, but it looks like we have a shortage of available developers on the VSL software team ATM. 8-/ ... the conversion of all VSL products to iLok-based copy protection seems to be much more challenging than expected. *sigh* ... it doesn't look like the targeted release date of "later this year (2021)" is realistic anymore.

For what it's worth, this particular customer is patient and content.  All things worth doing are worth doing right, and that takes whatever time it takes.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posted on Mon, Oct 25 2021 15:42
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7758

Originally Posted by: daviddln Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

If you want to work in stereo only, you'll mainly benefit from the new preset system, improved usability, and of course compatibility with new operating systems, CPUs, and GPUs. If you're working in surround, the sonic advantage will be enormous. If you're working in 3D, then there's no comparison anyway.

Hi Dietz,

Does it mean that there won't be sonic improvements when working in stereo?

Best,
David

:-D ... I _knew_ that I would read this question the very moment I clicked "Post" after I wrote the message above. I should have worded my reply more thoughtfully anyway, so here it goes:

- There will be MINOR improvements (on the edge of audibility) as long as we use Main and Secondary Mic-settings we already had in MIR Pro. In fact, we've spent a considerable amount of development time to ensure that existing MIR Pro-based mixes can be opened in MIR 3D without any major surprises. In other words: I consider this a feature. 

- As soon as we make use of the newly introduced features like Higher Order Ambisonics decoding in general, or coefficient-based decoding in particular, there will be significant changes that might also result in sonic improvements when used properly. ;-) However, I myself am still in the early stages with these new possibilities, so I do not yet dare to post any examples.

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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