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Second violins on the right
Last post Sun, Oct 24 2021 by PaoloT, 16 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Oct 01 2021 15:49
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Hi,

I would like to experiment with 2nd Violins moved to the right. I remember Ben described how to do, but for some reason I can't find that thread.

Can someone point me to the procedure? I've put in this post both "second violins" and "2nd violins", so it should be easy to get back to it later.

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Oct 01 2021 16:39
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12889

Hi, 

Position the close and mid mics in the direction you want to place the players, and maybe adjust the general panning for the whole section a little bit, if necessary. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Oct 01 2021 16:59
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Thank you, Paul, very easy!

Any need to also invert the phase of the room mics? Or would this be detrimental?

Paolo

Posted on Fri, Oct 01 2021 20:35
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12889

Hi, 

It all depends on your picked mixer presets. If you are using the same preset for both sections, no need to invert the phase. 

Trust your ears ;-)

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Oct 02 2021 10:14
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Thank you, Paul. As see with the Synchron Imperial, I understand that it is easy to change the pan of the room mics blending them with the close mics. Let's see what happens with such a radical change.

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Oct 05 2021 17:16
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

I did my tests, and I admit it's an impressive acoustic effect.

Room mics do contain position information, but very much blended with the ambience, much more diffuse and less directional.

Add the mid, or even close mics, and you have the image move towards the spot/medium mics.

Paolo

Posted on Mon, Oct 11 2021 15:53
by richhickey
Joined on Wed, Nov 01 2017, Posts 52

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

I did my tests, and I admit it's an impressive acoustic effect.

Room mics do contain position information, but very much blended with the ambience, much more diffuse and less directional.

Add the mid, or even close mics, and you have the image move towards the spot/medium mics.

Paolo

It's not the phase you need to switch, but you can swap L/R in the power pan of the tree/room mics to complete the effect. I've done this both for second violins and to move Synchron pianos around, with much success.

Posted on Mon, Oct 11 2021 16:35
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Originally Posted by: richhickey Go to Quoted Post

It's not the phase you need to switch, but you can swap L/R in the power pan of the tree/room mics to complete the effect.

Do you mean that I should move the L icon all to the right, and the R icon all to the left? So, it would not be inverting the phase, but moving the channel to the opposite side.

Paolo

Posted on Wed, Oct 13 2021 20:24
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Just wondering: isn't reversing the L and R channels the same as inverting the phase? The Power Pan would allow intermediate steps, but if completely wide, wouldn't it be the same?

Paolo

Posted on Thu, Oct 14 2021 18:38
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 380

Paolo, Richhickey's method of swapping L-R using Power Pan is very good. The Power Pan control itself does nothing in terms of signal-inversion (or so-called "phase-inversion"); I'm not sure why you're concerned about that.

The psychoacoustical realism achieved by the method comes largely from the direct-path L-R timing difference being reversed. That timing difference is one of the key factors that let our ears sense azimuth (known as the "precedence" effect).

Posted on Fri, Oct 15 2021 00:00
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Originally Posted by: Macker Go to Quoted Post

I'm not sure why you're concerned about that.

Just a moment of brain meltdown. Thank you for bringing me back to reality!

Paolo

Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2021 13:26
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1740

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

Just wondering: isn't reversing the L and R channels the same as inverting the phase? The Power Pan would allow intermediate steps, but if completely wide, wouldn't it be the same?

Paolo

Dear Paolo

No, it is not the same. "Ch-Swap" means that the right channel is played in the left channel and vice versa. Practically speaking: If something sounds first on the left (e.g. the 2nd violin), then it sounds after the "SWAP-Channel-Efect" from the right.

Inverting Phase means that if the oscillation of a tone starts first in the positive direction (imagine a sine wave), it will start in the negative direction after pressing the "Phase Invert Switch".

----------------------------

If you want a real redistribution of the instruments from left to right, sometimes it also helps if you select "unprocessed" (for the "Synchronized" instruments) or "without synchron stage" (default) for the synchron libraries. You actually have to experiment a bit.

For mixing reasons, a distribution of 1 viol 1 left, viol 2 right, viola and cello half left/half right and bass in the middle is the better solution than the classic setup. It offers a nicer stereo image, is better in terms of bass for many (small) speaker systems and a soloist is hardly covered by the bass in the middle. Personally, I am a big fan of the above mentioned setup. Moreover, this setup is sometimes used in reality. In addition, we are allowed to mix our orchestra the way we want, if no client wants it differently, because he pays.
All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2021 20:26
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

Beat, thank you very much for the explanations, clear and detailed as usual.

I know the difference between phase inversion and channel swapping, yet here I am: in that moment they were overlapping concepts, with one calling for the other. I was probably caught by a Mid/Side loop…

I too greatly prefer the configuration of 2nd Violins to the right. The channels are more balanced, and basses are more to the center. I've been very happy to discover that it is easy to achieve this configuration even with multi-mic orchestras recorded in the 20th-Century Cinema configuration. I'm happy to see that the old setup is more and more adopted by live orchestras.

Paolo

Posted on Thu, Oct 21 2021 23:37
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

The Violas, now.

They have to be shifted 30° on the left. What about the room mics? Should I move the R channel a bit to the left, or use the Balance slider to make the L channel stronger than the R?

The first solution would make the stereo field a bit narrower. I've no idea if this also happens when using the Balance control, or the stereo field remains the same, only moved on the same side.

Paolo

Posted on Sat, Oct 23 2021 17:51
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

I could finally devoted some time to experimenting. To move the Second Violins to the right here is what works for me:

- Move the Close and Mid mics completely to the right. Don't change the width of the Mid mics.

- Invert the L and R channels of the Room mics. Don't change their width.

- Move the Balance slider of the Room mics to the right, matching the Close and Mid mics.

Paolo

Posted on Sun, Oct 24 2021 17:26
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1190

I'm more and more convinced that Second Violins on the left should only be used sparingly, and only if the piece allows for it.

Now, try to do this with that configuration, and try to preserve the original intentions of the composer.

Paolo

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