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Using VE as a multi-instrument in Logic 7 or 8 - Tutorial
Last post Tue, Jun 16 2009 by zgogor, 12 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 09:08
by Jef de Corte
Joined on Wed, Sep 26 2007, Wichelen, Belgium, Posts 53
I figured out how to set up a multi-instrument orchestral template in Logic with the VE. This works in Logic 7 as well as in Logic 8.

I know some people are struggling with this so I wanted to share this with you all.


In the environment window, create a new multi-instrument in the menu New>Multi Instrument.
enable the 16 channels on each one of them (do this by clicking the squares with the numbers 1-16),

routed each multi-instrument to 1 software instrument by clicking the output (the small white triangle) and drag it to the instrument 1 channel strip:

I created 4 multi-instruments in the Logic environment
eg
I called multi-instrument 1 "strings" and routed it to the "Instrument 1" channel
I called multi-instrument 2 "wood" and routed it to the "Instrument 2" channel
I called multi-instrument 3 "brass" and routed it to the "Instrument 3" channel
I called multi-instrument 4 "perc" and routed it to the "Instrument 4" channel

etc...

Now I have 4 VE instrument plug-ins (strings - wood - brass - perc) and I fill each one with the matrixes I want to use:
eg for the strings:
instrument 1: strings I
instrument 2: strings II
instrument 3: violas
instrument 4: cellos
instrument 5: double bass


So this is done inside the VE plug-in. In each VI instrument I assign a midi channel to every instrument.
eg for the strings:
instrument 1: strings I - midi channel 1
instrument 2: strings II - midi channel 2
instrument 3: violas - midi channel 3
instrument 4: cellos - midi channel 4
instrument 5: double bass - midi channel 5


In the Logic arrange window you can now create instrument tracks. When you create a new track with the strings and it is set to midi channel 1, of course I will only hear the Strings I.
The trick is now to create a duplicate instrument track and assign its channel to midi 2 to get Strings II,
then another duplicate set to midi channel 3 to get the violas,
etc


You then do the same for the woodwinds, brass, perc, etc...
Save it as a template and you're done.


I didn't test it thoroughly but I tried it with a few instruments and it worked well.


Jef De Corte

www.myspace.com/aeronautsounds
Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 10:26
by g.beljon
Joined on Wed, Apr 14 2004, Netherlands, Posts 277

I created 4 multi-instruments in the Logic environment
eg
I called multi-instrument 1 "strings" and routed it to the "Instrument 1" channel
I called multi-instrument 2 "wood" and routed it to the "Instrument 2" channel
I called multi-instrument 3 "brass" and routed it to the "Instrument 3" channel
I called multi-instrument 4 "perc" and routed it to the "Instrument 4" channel
etc...

Now I have 4 VE instrument plug-ins (strings - wood - brass - perc) and I fill each one with the matrixes I want to use:
eg for the strings:

Hello Jef,

This is the part that I don't understand. Did you create 4 VE instrument plug-ins by creating the 4 multi instruments (and routing these)?

Is that the reason I have an empty service window? No spinning beachballs anymore?

It looks very promising, I am certainly going to try this.

Greetings,

Gerard

Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 10:55
by Jef de Corte
Joined on Wed, Sep 26 2007, Wichelen, Belgium, Posts 53
Hi Gerard,
you are right.
First you have to create as many multi-instruments as you need in the environment. Of course you can do the whole process one by one too.
First you create a multi-instrument in the environment window. You can choose to give it an appropriate name.
Then you route this multi-instrument to your first instrument channel by dragging from the small white arrow to the instrument channel.
What I forget to mention in my first post is that in this channel you have to choose a VE instrument, otherwise nothing is loaded of course. But this is pretty obvious for everyone I guess.
Then you go on just the way I described.

I have posted a small video on this by Apple on my myspace page in the video section. Maybe this will be helpful too. I don't remember where I found it some time ago.

jef

www.myspace.com/aeronautsounds
Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 14:58
by Jaimo
Joined on Fri, Jul 16 2004, Nashville, Posts 63
Quote:
In the Logic arrange window you can now create instrument tracks. When you create a new track with the strings and it is set to midi channel 1, of course I will only hear the Strings I.
The trick is now to create a duplicate instrument track and assign its channel to midi 2 to get Strings II,
then another duplicate set to midi channel 3 to get the violas,
etc


By creating the multi-instrument in the environment, you already have the individual MIDI tracks available to you, from the arrange page.

If you control/click on a track in the arrange page, you'll see "Re-assign Track Object". Simply follow that, and you'll see all the MIDI tracks from the multi-instrument you created. Add the first one (MIDI channel 1), and then simply utilize the "New with next MIDI channel" command, to add the remaining 15 MIDI tracks to your arrange page quickly.

Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 17:17
by robert_1811
Joined on Tue, Mar 18 2003, Nelson BC, Posts 12
Thanks Jef,

I've done all this but have a couple of outstanding issues and am not sure if what I'm facing is just limitations within Logic. First problem is that I can't seem to choose names for each subchannel to be displayed in the arrange window. I named my multi instrument "VE Chamber Strings" and now want channel 1 to be called 'pizz', channel 2 to be called 'sus' etc. But Logic just wants to call them "VE Chamber Strings 1", 2 and so on.

Second question is around MIDI volume. The way logic's behaving it seems to want to have only one set of MIDI volume data for the entire Chamber Strings multi-instrument, so no seperate movements for each subchannel. Is this an inherent limitation of Logic or am I just missing something about the setup process? Despite having used Creator/Notator/Logic for 18 years I still can't get my head around the whole environment thing...Any help much appreciated!

Robert Neufeld
www.realscoremusic.com
Mac Pro 8-core 2.8Ghz, 16GB RAM, OS 10.5.2, Logic 8, Powercore Express w/ VSS3 Reverb, Vienna SE, Chamber Strings, Appassionatas I, VSL First Edition, Stylus RMX, Trilogy, Symphonic Choirs, Voices of Passion, Ethno World 4, Percussive Adventures II. Etc..!
Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 17:53
by stevesong
Joined on Mon, Oct 18 2004, NYC, Posts 714

 Thanks Jef - - I think you've helped a lot of people with yor step by step instructions.

 In regard to MIDI volume in Logic:

All channels in a given  Audio Instrument are affected even when they are assigned to different channels. This is a problem in Logic and continues to be a problem in Logic 8. It affects all multi-timbral virtual instruments instantiated in a single Audio Instrument - - not just the Vienna Ensemble.

The way around this issue, whether using Vienna Ensemble (or any other multi-timbral plugin) is to use MIDI Expression (Controller 11) to affect volume levels. In contrast to its way of handling  MIDI Volume (CC7), Logic can read independent MIDI Expression (CC11) data for each channel of a multi-timbral VI instantiated in a single Audio Instrument.

Stephen Siegel
New York City

MacPro (4.1) dual-quad Xeon @ 2.9.3 Ghz
24GB RAM; OS 10.8.5
2 960 GB OWC E2 Mercury Accelsior SSDs one dedicated to samples and the other partitioned into a partition for samples and a part ion for apps and files.
MOTU 2408 MK III (PCIe)

MacBook Pro with 2.5Ghz Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM; OS 10.8.5
MOTU 828
Firmtek/Seritek 2SM2-E Express Card SATA adapter.

Logic 9.1.6.; Finale 2011
Posted on Thu, Nov 01 2007 18:06
by Jef de Corte
Joined on Wed, Sep 26 2007, Wichelen, Belgium, Posts 53
Thank you all for the responses and feedback.
There are indeed some issues to resolve yet, and I have to do some more testing too. For my first post I had drawn from my experience in trying to create a multi-instrument for the EXS24. This always worked only partly and not very satisfying because you had only one volume control for all 16 midi parts on one track.
With the new VE this is partly solved, and I think that if we put our experience together we will find the best possible workflow for the tools we have now.
I will do some more tests the following days, and if I find solutions for the questions above I'll post them here.

The multi-timbral issue has always been badly documented in the Logic manuals... I have only upgraded to Logic 8 two days ago, so I have still a lot to find out...
Posted on Wed, Nov 07 2007 18:28
by Jef de Corte
Joined on Wed, Sep 26 2007, Wichelen, Belgium, Posts 53
I have been very occupied with other stuff, and I didn't get the chance to do further tests.


However, I found 2 articles related to this issue that can solve some of the problems I think:

Use Multi Channel Audio Instruments as multi timbre synthesizers

Route separate audio channels from Multi Channel Audio Instruments




There is a lot of useful articles on this website for Logic users.
Tags: Logic 8
Posted on Thu, Oct 02 2008 15:46
by rogerdp
Joined on Thu, Sep 27 2007, London, Posts 8

I've been using multiple VI instances within a Logic 8 project and I'm trying to convert to 4 VE3 multi-instruments (one for each orchestral section, as described above) in the hope it will reduce CPU load and simplify access to VI parameters.

But I'm still trying to figure out the most efficient workaround to permit volume automation on each 'sub' instrument track, given Logic's 'one size fits all' approach to multi-timbral CC7 data. As far as I can see, the alternatives seem to be:

1. Create a MIDI multi instrument for each VE3 instance (connected via the Environment) and use the resulting MIDI tracks to send Expression (CC11) changes to VE3, in place of volume.

2. Route each 'sub' instrument aux track to a dedicated aux bus and automate the (output) of these secondary aux channels.

Neither solution seems to be particularly elegant, as they both double the number of tracks in the project.

I'm also using an M-Audio ProjectMix controller, designed to send/receive volume and pan info, rather than CC11 changes. So I'm inclined towards solution no. 2, but I might still need to keep the MIDI multi-instrument tracks if I want to send track based controller data. I.e. possibly three tracks (MIDI, VE3 host track and secondary aux) for each instrument within the VE3 envelopes.

Surely there must be a better solution?! Have I missed something obvious, or should I return to multiple VI instances until Apple implement independent CC7 handling for multi-timbral plugins?

iMac 2.33Ghz, 3GB RAM, OS 10.4.11, Logic 8.0.2, Vienna SE & VE3, M-Audio ProjectMix audio interface/control surface.
Master: iMac 3.5Ghz i7, 32GB RAM, OS 10.9.5, Logic 10.2.2, VI Pro, VE5, V Suite & MIR (24), M-Audio ProjectMix audio interface/control surface. Slave PC: 3.3GHz i5-2500K, 32GB RAM, Win7 (64bit)
Posted on Wed, Feb 11 2009 11:13
by Jonnui
Joined on Sun, Jan 04 2009, Beaconsfield, United Kingdom, Posts 10
The bit I don't get is this:

So this is done inside the VE plug-in. In each VI instrument I assign a midi channel to every instrument.
eg for the strings:
instrument 1: strings I - midi channel 1
etc...


how do i assign the instruments to midi channels -within- the VI plug-in? I'm using the Vienna special edition rather than Vienna Ensemble. I'm new to all this so I don't really know what the difference is, if any.

Jon
Posted on Wed, Feb 11 2009 12:23
by Jonnui
Joined on Sun, Jan 04 2009, Beaconsfield, United Kingdom, Posts 10
sorry, i've just figured out what the VE is, please ignore my retardation.
jon
Posted on Tue, Jun 16 2009 20:15
by zgogor
Joined on Tue, Apr 22 2003, World, Posts 38

hi all,

Midi problem to contol each instance of VE is mainly because Logic works with a TRACK BASE AUTOMATION, it means that it is like a Channel strip and all the sound provide by the VE will be affected when it is loaded on a Track.

So the TBA ( Track Base Automation ) cannot control each volumes independently inside the VE because it is global instead of being able to be separated.

But, midi automation with CC#11 can be a solution as everybody mention it .

I didn't tried it but each sounds inside the VE can probably retrieve the CC#11 like:

Midi 1 / cc#11 / Strings 1

Midi 2 / cc#11/ cello

Midi 2 / cc#11 / Alti

etc ...

remember that you can convert TBA to midi Automation with logic 8

my 2 coins

ZgO

ZgOgOr
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