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VE Pro 5, Kontakt 5: Distorted Audio during Tempo Changes
Last post Thu, Feb 25 2016 by Trailerman, 85 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 02:24
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

I'm using LASS loaded in Kontakt 5 inside of VE Pro 5 on a slave machine that is triggered by Cubase 6.5 (using VST3 64-bit). Anytime there is a tempo change in Cubase, the audio from VE Pro gets distorted. For example, if you have a "ramp" tempo change in Cubase, during the ramp, the audio is distorted, but at all other times, it is fine. Also, if you watch the VE Pro window during the tempo change, the focus randomly and quickly shifts between different Kontakt instances. In other words, the highlighted instances change rapidly like they do when I manually click them. Also, I verified that Kontakt is getting the tempo changes (shown on the master editor tab). However, it seems like the tempo changes are making VE Pro go crazy.

Here is my exact setup:

Cubase 6.5.0

VE Pro 5.1.11252

Kontakt 5.0.3.5812

Windows 7 64 bit

I've also tried Cubase 6.5.3 with the same problem. I just recently upgraded all of these tools, but I never experienced this problem in the last version of VE Pro 4. Thanks for the help.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 02:27
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

By the way, this problem does not occur for VSL instruments or for Play instruments (at least the ones that I've tested). I haven't tested other Kontakt libraries, but I will soon.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 02:47
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

I haven't found the exact cause, but when I use smaller Kontakt templates, the problem does not occur. I will experiment with different sizes to see if I can create a reproducible test. 

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 08:37
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 A few things that occur to me:

  1. Are you using tempo synced patches?
  2. Is LASS supposed to work in K5, or is it a K4 library that you happen to be running in K5?
  3. If you use lots of small tempo jumps, rather than a ramp, does the same thing happen?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 12:45
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

Good questions:

1) no

2) I'm using LASS 2, which requires K5

3) Small tempo jumps do not seem to cause a problem

Here is some other info I found. I currently have one VE Pro 5 instance for LASS2 with 5 Kontakt instances. As I start to delete Kontakt instances, the problem gets better (less distorted). If I get down to one instance, I *think* it is working correctly. This suggests a possible workaround of 5 separate LASS instances instead of 1 with 5 Kontakt instances. 

However, I would still like to figure out the problem because this prevents me from getting the most benefits from VST3. I also have a huge template on other machines, so I need to reduce VE Pro instances whenever possible. Thanks for the help.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 12:55
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

Another interesting result is that if I solo one of the 5 Kontakt instances, I still get the problem. But, if I delete the unused instances, it seems to work. So, the issue seems related to the number of instances loaded, not the number of instances involved in playback. Weird.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 12:55
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Could you try a similar thing with something like Stylus or Omnisphere, to see if those players can cope with tempo ramps? If they can. then it is definitely a Kontakt problem, LASS problem, or both. If they can't then the VEP programmers need to have a look at it.

The other thing to look at is whether or not things are better or worse if you change the multi processor settings in Kontakt (I can't remember whether or not you have done this).

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 13:20
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

I tried Kontakt with the multiprocessing settings both on and off and it didn't seem to make a difference. The only other libraries I have installed on my Kontakt 5 machine are VSL and Play libraries, which don't seem to be having the problem. However, I also found that if I delete some of the instruments from each Kontakt instance, the problem goes away (even with 5 Kontakt instances). 

I don't think the problem is with LASS because I bypassed the LASS scripts and was still getting the problem.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 13:33
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

I just noticed that during the ramp tempo change, the CPU usage in VE Pro jumps to ~99%. This is definitely the problem, but I'm still not sure of the cause.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 13:36
by labman
Joined on Tue, Sep 28 2010, Posts 108
I can definitely say Omnisphere will get some troubles with tempo changes inside VEP on slave. Stuck notes etc. (But not if directly loaded into DP session). Also Kontakt 5 libs that use time machine can also suffer from clarity issues when inside VEP on slaves. random flanging etc. (Again this does not happen inside DP if K5 is loaded directly)

Maybe this info might help.
Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 13:47
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

In my latest tests, the CPU during a tempo change is over 90% during a tempo change and only 20-30% at other times. Unfortunately, my previous "fixes" (either reducing the Kontakt instances or reducing the size of each instance) don't actually work because a single reduced instance still has the CPU around 85% during a tempo change. So, there actually isn't a workaround because even if I replicate VE Pro instances, the CPU will just jump back to 100%.

I've tried almost everything I can think of, with the exception of reverting back to VE Pro 4.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 14:00
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

I also tried all combinations of buffer sizes and reducing the midi and audio ports in VE Pro.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 14:20
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

Sorry for the swarm of messages, but I keep finding new information. If I completely mute everything in Cubase, so there is no midi data being sent to VE Pro (or Kontakt), the CPU usage still jumps to ~100% on my VE PRO slave.during the tempo change.

Posted on Sat, Aug 11 2012 17:50
by gs_vsl
Joined on Sat, Jan 23 2010, Posts 47

Progress! It is most likely a Kontakt problem. If I manually disable the host tempo sync in *every* instance of Kontakt, it seems fine. I guess Kontakt 5 has issues with tempo sync and large templates. I'm not sure if this is specific to instances of Kontakt in VE Pro or in general. I'll need to change my setup to test it directly in Cubase, but I'll report back on anything I find.

Posted on Sat, Aug 25 2012 15:03
by labman
Joined on Tue, Sep 28 2010, Posts 108
How are you disabling the tempo sync in every instance of Kontakt? What procedure please?

Any other discoveries since your last post?

thanks!!!
Posted on Fri, Oct 05 2012 20:37
by Jongnic
Joined on Thu, Sep 16 2010, Posts 11
Has this thread died? I am too very much interested in a solution to this problem. When I run my large orchestral template with VE Pro and Kontakt I have the same issues with regards to pops. I will try turning off the tempo synch in Kontakt for the instances that do not need it and see if that helps.
To turn off tempo synch:
Open the Kontakt instance in VEPro
Click on the Master button
Deselect the "Ext" next to the BPM


Kontakt should now use its internal tempo for synching.

Obviously this is not a long term solution so I hope someone at who can fix this at Vienna or NI is reading this thread.

JB
Cubase 6.5 on a Mac Pro 8-core OSX 10.6.8 12GB Ram

VE Pro 5 on three Core i7 Windows 7 PC's with 32GB of Ram
Jongnic Bontemps
Composer
Cubaseb 8.5 on 8-Core Mac Pro Windows 10 32GB Ram, Steinberg UR824
VE-Pro 5 on Intel Core i7 Windows 7 with 32GB
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2012 06:07
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1520

I never thought about tempo sync, apparently I never found the need. however I looked at it, I have external sync enabled in every case; I have projects that double the tempo or more in Cubase. But, I am using Kontakt 4. This seems like an issue for NI per Kontakt 5 to me.

MacBook Pro 2.6GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
Posted on Wed, Oct 17 2012 18:41
by Talino
Joined on Sat, Jul 17 2010, Posts 260

I've just joined the club. Distortion, Kontakt-only instruments in VEP 5 (VSL stuff not affected), CPU through the roof, and only on tempo ramp (in Cubase).

The weird part of it is that I've been working on the same 4-5 projects this week, using the same template, no change whatsoever, no upgrade, nothing. I just opened a project from three days ago and spent half an hour figuring out what was causing this.

If it was a config problem I'd understand (sort of), but this just happened out of nowhere. Very strange.

Like everyone here, I deactivated Kontakt tempo sync but this is obviously not a solution.

MASTER: Cubase Pro 10.0.20, iMac 27 2015 i7 4.0 (17,1) 24gb RAM, OS X 10.14.4, RME Fireface UC. SLAVE: Mac Pro 2009 Quad 2.66 (4,1), 28gb RAM, OS X 10.11.6, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7, samples on OWC Accelsior SSD.
Posted on Thu, Oct 18 2012 15:45
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 256

I too have issues with tempo changes using Cubase 6.5x and VE PRO.  I am not sure if it is just Kontakt or not, but my template is gigantic and I run a sound card buffer of 128.  I noticed that when mixing if I increase my sound card buffer to 512 I can mix the cues with no issues what so ever that I hear at 128 samples.  So I assume by me increasing to 512 that it is lowering the cpu usage across all machines getting rid of the problem.  In other words I think this shows more evidence that there is a cpu spike happening on the slave machines during tempo changes.

-Danny

Posted on Tue, Nov 06 2012 15:50
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 256

I would really like to see this solved.  Has anyone determined if this is a VE PRO problem or a Kontakt issue?

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