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Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 18:19
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
How do I select articulations by MIDI channel within a single matrix of Vienna Instruments?When composing in the score I assign notes to unique MIDI channels to select the various articulations.  For example:VIOLINS 1 (Single V.I. AU/VST)Sus =  MIDI Channel 1Leg =  MIDI Channel 2Stac = MIDI Channel 3Pizz = MIDI Channel 4Leg =  MIDI Channel 5etc..Selecting Articulations via MIDI ChannelsI fully understand how to assign the Vienna Instrument player a method of selecting the articulations by MIDI Control Codes (Mod Wheel, etc), as well as the other possible ways (Velocity, speed, etc.), but I cannot find a way to assign each articulation within the Matrix a unique MIDI channel. How is this achieved?
Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 19:06
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires. MA USA, Posts 906

 The VI Player is not multitimberal, so only receives on a single MIDI channel. You'd have to use Vienna Ensemble to host an instance of the player on each channel with the desire articulation loaded in each. Not really the way it's designed to be done though...

Finale 25, Sibelius 2018, Notion 6, Overture 5, Cubase 10.0.2
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Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 19:47
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27

If this is indeed by design I am very suprised by what I think is a glaring oversight of an elegant way to compose in the score (selecting articulations with MIDI channels).

The Vienna Instrument player appears to be bountiful in ways of selecting articulations, especially suited for real time performances, but composing with the proverbial quill and paper it doesn't seem to offer an elegant method of selecting articulations (without cluttering the score with keyswitches).

As an AU/VST plugin that may be used 'within' a sequencer, it seems odd in this day and age that it is not multitimbral, especially when offering such a robust Matrix, along with a myriad of other ways for selecting articulations.

Will selecting articulations by MIDI channel ever be implemented in Vienna Instruments?

Tags: Multitimbral
Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 20:22
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires. MA USA, Posts 906

 Well, instead you'd be cluttering the score with MIDI channel change messeges...

Finale 25, Sibelius 2018, Notion 6, Overture 5, Cubase 10.0.2
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August Forster 190
Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 20:37
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27

That is a ridiculous statement (not sure that you're serious). No MIDI Channel change messages appear in the score. On the contrary, a note or group of notes is selected and their MIDI channel is simply changed to the channel that the desired articulation is on, and the score remains clean and very legible.

Will selecting articulations by MIDI channel ever be implemented in Vienna Instruments?

Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 22:34
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
george_11239 wrote:

If this is indeed by design I am very suprised by what I think is a glaring oversight of an elegant way to compose in the score (selecting articulations with MIDI channels).

I don't see it as glaringly elegant, especially if you want to use more than 16 articulations and run out of midi channels.

george_11239 wrote:
As an AU/VST plugin that may be used 'within' a sequencer, it seems odd in this day and age that it is not multitimbral....

My understanding is that multitimbrality has lost its value in this modern day and age. It was a benefit with hardware synths, when it saved you from having to buy 16 identical hardware synths to get your job done. In this more advanced day and age, you can just install VI once and do like this:

Bill wrote:
... You'd have to use Vienna Ensemble to host an instance of the player on each channel with the desire articulation loaded in each....
... so the benefit of multitimbrality seems moot; and yes I'm serious.
Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 22:48
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27

I absolutely do see it as an extremely elegant method and also the most preferable way of selecting articulations in the score.

I am really surprised by the lack of this basic functionality in 2014. Not having multi-timbral capibilties reminds me of vintage synths.

Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 22:57
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
george_11239 wrote:

I absolutely do see it as an extremely elegant method and also the most preferable way of selecting articulations in the score.

I am really surprised by the lack of this basic functionality in 2014. Not having multi-timbral capibilties reminds me of vintage synths.

The functionality isn't really lacking; it's just that you're overlooking Bill's solution. If it were a vintage synth, you'd have to buy a separate VI for each articulation, and that's not the case. I'd be really surprised if VSL jumped on this, considering they'd only be duplicating functionality already available, as Bill described, and VI reminding people of vintage synths doesn't appear to be a widespread problem.

Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 23:00
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
BachRules wrote:

My understanding is that multitimbrality has lost its value in this modern day and age. It was a benefit with hardware synths, when it saved you from having to buy 16 identical hardware synths to get your job done. In this more advanced day and age, you can just install VI once and do like this:

Bill wrote:
... You'd have to use Vienna Ensemble to host an instance of the player on each channel with the desire articulation loaded in each....
... so the benefit of multitimbrality seems moot; and yes I'm serious.

Your understanding is shortsided of multitimbral advantages and it is by no means a moot point to any degree. A virtual instrument without multitimbral capabilties within Vienna Ensemble requires the articulations to be spread across the channel strips in order to access them by MIDI channel, and the Event plugin doesn't help in this regard either (whereas on a multitimbral VI the Event plug is of tremendous value).

A multi-timbral instrument (e.g. PLAY, Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc.) is capable of not just loading 16 articulations within a single instance, but is capable of assigning each of those articulations a unique MIDI channel. This I see as of paramount importance in quickly assigning a selected note(s) in the score a desired articulation.

Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 23:09
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
BachRules wrote:
The functionality isn't really lacking; it's just that you're overlooking Bill's solution. If it were a vintage synth, you'd have to buy a separate VI for each articulation, and that's not the case. I'd be really surprised if VSL jumped on this, considering they'd only be duplicating functionality already available, as Bill described, and VI reminding people of vintage synths doesn't appear to be a widespread problem.

Yes it most certainly is a lack of basic functionality.

I am well aware of the benefits of Vienna Ensemble, but as I stated, without multitimbral capabilties the solution is to spread the articulations across the channels in VE Pro, opposed to loading 16 articulations within a single VI instance and accessing them with uniquely assigned MIDI channels from the score.

Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 23:23
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360
george_11239 wrote:
A multi-timbral instrument (e.g. PLAY...)....

PLAY not always: http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=48869 

george_11239 wrote:
Your understanding is shortsided of multitimbral advantages and it is by no means a moot point to any degree. A virtual instrument without multitimbral capabilties within Vienna Ensemble requires the articulations to be spread across the channel strips in order to access them by MIDI channel, and the Event plugin doesn't help in this regard either (whereas on a multitimbral VI the Event plug is of tremendous value).

I hadn't realized that complication; sorry.

george_11239 wrote:
A multi-timbral instrument (e.g. PLAY, Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc.) is capable of not just loading 16 articulations within a single instance, but is capable of assigning each of those articulations a unique MIDI channel. This I see as of paramount importance in quickly assigning a selected note(s) in the score a desired articulation.
An architecture limiting the number of articulations to the number of MIDI channeles -- 16 -- would seem vintage-synthy to me. Limiting timbres to 16 made sense in 1983 when MIDI was designed, but not anymore. VI does provide multiple timbres, just not limited to the number 16 which is an artifact of history.I don't see keyswitches as clutter in my score; but if others see it like you, my opinion won't matter.
Posted on Tue, Jul 29 2014 23:53
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
BachRules wrote:
I don't see keyswitches as clutter in my score; but if others see it like you, my opinion won't matter.

Keyswitches in the score most certainly are clutter, in that they have no bearing on what it is being written or read, that's what articulation symbols are for. With a unique MIDI channel the score remains clean and contains only the composed notes.

BachRules wrote:
An architecture limiting the number of articulations to the number of MIDI channeles -- 16 -- would seem vintage-synthy to me. Limiting timbres to 16 made sense in 1983 when MIDI was designed, but not anymore.

On the contary, a virtual instrument without these capabilties is what is similar to non-multitimbral vintage synths. And it makes perfect sense to have these capabilties in this modern day and age... especially when needing to access articulations by MIDI channel within a score.

If the Vienna Instrument player had multitimbral capabilties the benefit of using it within VE Pro would be even more beneficial, as each instance could hold a multitude of articulations and circumvent the 16/32 MIDI channel limit by adding more instances (as I do now with multitimbral VI's.).

Nonetheless, I understand that the Vienna Instrument Player does not have this capability and thus remain very dissapointed.

Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 07:03
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11305

Hello everybody, 

Vienna Ensemble / Vienna Ensemble PRO is a multi-timbral plug-in. 

And although it´s not the intended use, you can definitely load multiple Vienna Instruments instances and use one articulation on each channel. 

Another alternative is to use program changes to switch between matrices within a Vienna Instruments instance (instead of using keyswitches to switch, this way you can us up to 127 matrices in 1 instance of Vienna Instruments). 

Best, 

Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 07:50
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Whilst I would have no use for a separate MIDI channel for each articulation, I
can see that it might be useful for other people,. However, I just wanted to clarify a couple of points:

  1. If you use VST Expression this solve the
    problem, and is by far the most elegant of all solutions. The caveat is that
    there is a limit to the complexity that can be achieved using this method, although using separate MIDI channels has a much lower limit.
  2. You don't have
    to see Keyswitches in the Score. Just set them outside of the range of the instrument in the Score Editor properties and they wont show.
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Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:03
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
Paul wrote:
And although it´s not the intended use, you can definitely load multiple Vienna Instruments instances and use one articulation on each channel.

That is what I don't want to do, I'd rather have one instance of Vienna Instruments loaded with numerous articulations and then select them by unique MIDI channels. Being that Vienna Instruments is not multitimbral, this is not possible.

-

-

Paul wrote:
Another alternative is to use program changes to switch between matrices within a Vienna Instruments instance (instead of using keyswitches to switch, this way you can us up to 127 matrices in 1 instance of Vienna Instruments).

This is interesting and I appreciate the suggestion, thanks.  

Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:19
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
DG wrote:
  1. If you use VST Expression this solve the problem, and is by far the most elegant of all solutions. The caveat is that there is a limit to the complexity that can be achieved using this method, although using separate MIDI channels has a much lower limit.
  2. You don't have to see Keyswitches in the Score. Just set them outside of the range of the instrument in the Score Editor properties and they wont show.

I'm using Logic Pro X and VE Pro 5 and have been working in the score of Logic since the early 1990's.  While I appreciate your suggestion of using expression maps, for me, the most elegant and quickest workflow is to write a note(s) in the score and then within the same window simply change the MIDI channel that is assigned to the desired articulation. No messy keyswitches, no extraneous info on the score, and no opening any other window to select an articulation.

-

-

As I previously mentioned, I realize the range of the viewable score can be decreased in order to hide the keyswitches. However, the idea of nudging keyswitches around and hiding and showing when necessary is not a desirable approach. I prefer to see only the notes I am composing and triggering articulations via the assigned MIDI channel within the score. Thanks for the suggestions though. 

-

-

I would dive into Vienna Instruments if it were multitimbral as are PLAY, Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc. That's too bad because the sounds are superb.

Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:27
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires. MA USA, Posts 906

 Think of VE Pro as Kontakt, and instances of VI as the instruements loaded into Kontakt. The functionality is the same.

Finale 25, Sibelius 2018, Notion 6, Overture 5, Cubase 10.0.2
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August Forster 190
Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:33
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Ah, well if you have to use Logic, then obviously VST Expression maps
won't work. BTW if you ever do think about using Cubase, or any other
VST3 compatible sequencer, do look into Expression Maps, as they do just
what you want and are much more convenient and efficient than using MIDI channels.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
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Intensity
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Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:44
by george_11239
Joined on Thu, Jan 06 2005, Posts 27
DG wrote:

Ah, well if you have to use Logic, then obviously VST Expression maps
won't work. BTW if you ever do think about using Cubase, or any other
VST3 compatible sequencer, do look into Expression Maps, as they do just
what you want and are much more convenient and efficient than using MIDI channels.

I much prefer Logic over Cubase in more ways than one.

Using MIDI channels within the score is undoubtedly the quickest, most convenient, and extremely efficient.

If Vienna Instruments was multitimbral this wouldn't be an issue.

Posted on Wed, Jul 30 2014 13:58
by BachRules
Joined on Sun, Mar 30 2014, Posts 360

george_11239 wrote:
I much prefer Logic over Cubase in more ways than one.

Using MIDI channels within the score is undoubtedly the quickest, most convenient, and extremely efficient.

If Vienna Instruments was multitimbral this wouldn't be an issue.

VI is post-multimbral, providing 127 timbres via program changes. That's 111 timbres more than the vintage "multitimbral" synths provide.

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