Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Metamorphosis - Two Versions
Last post Tue, Apr 03 2018 by Acclarion, 5 replies.
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Fri, Mar 30 2018 14:51
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 472

Hi all,

This was an experimental piece for string orchestra, created exclusively with the Vienna Symphonic Library strings. In this version, I used Synchron Strings exclusively, with no additional reverb, except for a bit of "Miracle".

Metamorphosis - Synchron Version

 

In this version, I layered orchestral, chamber, and solo strings, and placed them in Mir's Teldex Studio.

Metamorphosis - Orchestral/Chamber/Solo Strings Version

My thoughts:



-I began this version by copying the midi data for the previous orchestral/chamber/solo strings version. In all, it took about 4 hours of tweaking to complete the Synchron version.

-I like the sharp attacks of the Synchron strings (it's nice to be able to have that little "marcato" at the start of a legato phrase)

-The shorts are clean, crisp, decisive

-Increased velocity layers allows for less precise tweaking of the expression cc data

-The workflow doesn't feel any more efficient using Synchron with the current Vienna Instruments player. Hoping that the soon-to-be-released Synchron player is more intuitive and improves workflow.

-The piece is a little "punchy/bombastic" in terms of the overall force of the sound.  I was definitely trying to create a heavy handed performance with decisive articulations so that I could compare the two versions.  

Dave



www.dearvillainmusic.com - music for live performance by David Carovillano

www.acclarion.ca - concert accordion & clarinet duo
Posted on Sat, Mar 31 2018 20:13
by Paul McGraw
Joined on Mon, Feb 29 2016, Georgia, USA, Posts 402

Originally Posted by: Acclarion Go to Quoted Post

Hi all,

This was an experimental piece for string orchestra, created exclusively with the Vienna Symphonic Library strings. In this version, I used Synchron Strings exclusively, with no additional reverb, except for a bit of "Miracle".

Metamorphosis - Synchron Version

 

In this version, I layered orchestral, chamber, and solo strings, and placed them in Mir's Teldex Studio.

Metamorphosis - Orchestral/Chamber/Solo Strings Version

My thoughts:



-I began this version by copying the midi data for the previous orchestral/chamber/solo strings version. In all, it took about 4 hours of tweaking to complete the Synchron version.

-I like the sharp attacks of the Synchron strings (it's nice to be able to have that little "marcato" at the start of a legato phrase)

-The shorts are clean, crisp, decisive

-Increased velocity layers allows for less precise tweaking of the expression cc data

-The workflow doesn't feel any more efficient using Synchron with the current Vienna Instruments player. Hoping that the soon-to-be-released Synchron player is more intuitive and improves workflow.

-The piece is a little "punchy/bombastic" in terms of the overall force of the sound.  I was definitely trying to create a heavy handed performance with decisive articulations so that I could compare the two versions.  

Dave



Hi Dave,

We seem to run into each other in different places! 

I wonder what is wrong with me, I actually prefer the non-Synchron version much, much more. For one thing there is more variation in each note. A real string section, even in a top orchestra, is never going to be as precise as the Synchron strings sound. Your mix of VSL Orchestral, Chamber and Solo strings. let just call it the mix, sounds more like a real section. Each note sounds more alive, and yet also more musical to me. I bought the Synchron Strings and have been trying to use them, without much success.

It must be something wrong with me. The Synchron versions seems too harsh, so much so that it sounds artificial. The mix is energetic, but I can still picture real musicians playing your piece. It isn't extreme.

The Synchron Strings take up a lot of the sonic "space" in a mix. This is something I do not understand, not being a sound engineer. The SyS sound louder than a volume meter would indicate, and the volume has to be turned down substantially to leave room for anything else in a mix.

Your piece itself is interesting, energetic, and held my interest through to the end.

Posted on Sat, Mar 31 2018 21:29
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 472

Hi Paul,

Yes, our paths cross often in the two forums.  Wouldn't it be funny if one day, it happened in real life.  At least I'd recognize you from your profile picture, so I'll keep an eye out when I'm in Georgia (if I'm not mistaken, that's where you're based) :)

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with preferring one version over the other, even if it is the less likely option preferred by the majority.  It's all subjective, and there are definitely aspects of the orchestral "mix" version I prefer as well.  I think a similar phenomena exists in terms of the precise, high-fidelity sound of the synchron strings that is akin to an LED tv vs, say a plasma. With TVs, there is often the talk that a digital crisp image (LED) is fatiguing to the eye and is ultra realistic, but lacks a certain warmth or grittyness that a plasma screen provides. 

The synchron has a sharp, precision, that almost becomes unrealistic, in that it lacks the "warmth" or "imprecise" nature of live playing.  Obviously, we can simulate these things with human playback settings, quantisation, etc., but as you said, the overly "precise" sound may immediately call in to question the realism.  Of course, since the vast majority of people aren't tuned in to these subtle nuances of live orchestral performance, they will likely be inclined to prefer the synchron version because it jumps out at them more obviously.

Anyway, thanks for listening and continued success with your own fine orchestral music!  

Dave

www.dearvillainmusic.com - music for live performance by David Carovillano

www.acclarion.ca - concert accordion & clarinet duo
Posted on Tue, Apr 03 2018 14:10
by Jos Wylin
Joined on Mon, Dec 03 2012, Flanders, Belgium, Posts 579

Dear Dave,

Thanks for sharing this piece. The two version offer a interesting comparison between two recording tecniques and libraries and open the path for discussion. Let me say first that I like both versions, but for different reasons. The SynS version has a more direct feel and therefore seems less 'believable'. I'm not so acquainted yet with the pure sound of theat string library, but somehow it leaves me with some sonic questions. That means that I, like Paul, absolutely prefer the layered version. I guess you mean by 'layered' that you've stacked the libraries in one VI instance? The final result however is rich, detailed and convincingly real. You hear an ensemble that is playing almost live. You mentioned the impreciseness of the Synchron Strings, but that is not what I hear. Quite the opposite. In your mixed version I notice far more little imperfections and human feel. The sound is richer and with more variations in timbre, which is of course a quality of a number of different string instruments playing together. Too polished is never real (and that goes for so many details: construction, material, playing techniques, bowing type, origin of the instruments, vibrato type...) With 3 libraries mixed together, you come a lot closer to that reality.
A final question though: have you stacked your libraries in one VI-instance or have you distributed them over different midi channels? (I would prefer the last approach here to have total control over the mixing details.)

As to the piece itself, I like it a lot. It shows again your mastery of string instruments and your compositional skills. It has a nice dynamic flow and beautiful contrasts, varied harmonies and powerful thematic lines.

Well done!

Jos

http://www.joswyl.be
compositions and sampling exercises
Posted on Tue, Apr 03 2018 16:01
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 472

Hi Jos,

Thanks for your detailed discussion of the two versions.  I agree with much of what you said.  Just to clarify, as my wording above may have been confusing; I wrote that the synchron has a sharp, precision, that almost becomes unrealistic, in that it lacks the "warmth" or "imprecise" nature of live playing, much in agreement with what Paul had noted as you had.  In other words, we're all in agreement that by being overly precise and "perfect" in its attacks, etc. the synchron strings might actually appear less realistic.  That said, it is nice that the Synchron strings have the biting marcato attacks available to clearly define notes that require it (for instance a run of sixteenth notes that starts with a marcato attack and then plays out as a legato phrase).  

As to layering the orchestral/chamber/solo strings, my template has everything as separate instances to allow for maximum control/blending as you suggested would be a more ideal solution.  I'm thinking now, as I work on my newest orchestral work, "What Will Become of Us?" that I will ultimately have to layer the synchron, as I'm struggling to truly achieve the legatos I would like.  As Paul mentioned elsewhere, it seems that the Synchron's strengths are many, but it's weaknesses (thus far as I've noted with minimal experience and without the benefit of the Synchron player) need to be hidden behind another library that might enhance the overall esthetic of the string section.

I appreciate your comments on the composition itself, as I always feel more confident writing the music than "producing it."

All the best,

Dave

www.dearvillainmusic.com - music for live performance by David Carovillano

www.acclarion.ca - concert accordion & clarinet duo
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.