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Are we "performers?"
Last post Fri, Apr 13 2018 by mh-7635, 52 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Apr 08 2018 16:31
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949

"Have you had much experience of your own music being played live and well? It may be a bit crass, but if you feel so inclined, listen to my Partita Concordia on my site and tell me you could programme that better. " mh7635

You are just so superior aren't you?  Looking down on everybody from your high "professional" viewpoint with orchestras lining up everywhere to play your masterpieces. I again wonder - why are you on this website?  So you can tell people your live performances are better than sampled performances by VSL?  It is tacky and arrogant. 

I want an apology from you. I do not like people calling me "idiot" in public.  

Posted on Sun, Apr 08 2018 17:01
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 570

I do not believe mh meant his apreciation of this certain performance in any arrogant way. Obviously this interpretation meet in an extraordinary way what the composer intended that music to be. This is great, but I do not see any necessity to generalize that.  Neither conventional nor digital artitst are worth to be disregarded in any way. I personally even think both could learn from each other very much. And the great VSL-Samples are notably of distinctive quality since they rely on an extraordinary living tradition of classical orchestramusicians in Vienna.

But we should definitly avoid to miss the respect for any kind of musician whatever instruments he uses.

To be serious: Is there any greater resource of sample-based recordings of classical music out there?
Posted on Sun, Apr 08 2018 21:40
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949

Thanks fahl5, that is kind of you to say.

Posted on Mon, Apr 09 2018 05:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949

Another statement at mike hewer -  not discussion, just statement:

you list a trio as your expressive work doing what samples can never do.

I was NEVER talking about solo works or tiny chamber ensembles.  ORCHESTRAL music was what I have always been discussing and made perfectly clear.  

You believe you are the only person with live music experience on this Forum? What orchestras did you play in?   I played in orchestras - symphony, opera, chamber, concert bands, chamber ensembles for 35 years.  I conducted live performances of my own works including film scores and concerts.  I composed and received commissions for many live performances.  Also the performance I mentioned was not a bad one.  TRY AND GET A PERFORMANCE WITH RENO CHAMBER ORCHESTRA.  Do it!  Let's hear how fast they get back to you.

Don't go dismissing everyone here with your goddamned arrogance.  You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  THE FACT IS that when players are in a large orchestral group - and this is something you don't get but need to - they do not play the same as when playing SOLO or in a small chamber work.  Their sound becomes homogenized. Often totally so, even in great orchestras.  Thisis something samples can reproduce often far better than live.  But you attempt to dismiss that idea with solo performance.   It is impossible to compare soloistic playing ot three players to a 40 piece swtring ensemble. That is absurd - and it is what YOU are conflating.    Also - You insulted me and I demand an apology.

William Kersten


Posted on Mon, Apr 09 2018 06:38
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 161


William Kersten,

I was going to try and explain in words your fanboy addled brain might understand, the point I've been making all along, but your knee-jerk emotional, bitter and insulting reactions blind you to the possibility that other well considered opinions are available, let alone understand them. Your attitude also seemingly renders you insensible, curt and incapable of discerning context in a forum post when responding to opposing points of view.  A shame, really.

Likewise I was going to list examples of the false assumptions and assertions you have made in this thread about me ( which started this argument) and refute each one, but it is not worth the effort because you are beyond any civility or sense in this matter....and you want an apology from me?

You will understand I trust, if I do not change my opinion about you in order to satisfy your offended self.


Thank you Fahl for seeing my self-reference how it was intended to be. I enjoyed your post but can't agree fully with it. So be it, at least it was civil, reasonable and well thought out - the sort of thoughtful response one would like to read when polar positions are being aired.


My apologies for the spiral away from the threads original topic.

Posted on Tue, Apr 10 2018 01:15
by agitato
Joined on Mon, Jun 22 2015, Posts 296

Originally Posted by: Acclarion Go to Quoted Post

Hi all,

Second, also tying in to this was an article I read that tried to argue that percussionists are not musicians but rather technicians, because many aspects of musicianship are not required to "bang on a drum in time" (as a distilation of the main argument).




Hi Dave,

first off, excellent topic. I havent had the chance to comment but there is plenty of interesting posts already.

One thing that caught my attention, and that William mentions too, was the article you mention about percussionists not being real muscians.  Whoever wrote that must be ignorant not only of western music, where percussionists simply dont just "bang on drums" but rather have a wide range of muscianship skills, but they probably couldnt face an indian percussionist like Zakir Hussein. Some of the greatest indian muscians I know are percussionists, they have a mastery of rhythm that is quite other wordly AND they have amazing ear for melody as well.

My resposne to the idiot who wrote that article would be this: Without rhythm, there is no music, and good percussionists are masters of complex rhythms. So without them there is no music!

Could you point to that article? I really want to hate that person who wrote it (well, my brother is an Indian classical percussionist, so this is a bit personal for me;))...but no worries if you prefer not to share it.



Anand Kumar
Posted on Tue, Apr 10 2018 03:00
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 244
Hi Anand,

The article was in a large pile of magazines from my school library that I was discarding. This is going back several years and when I brought it up in this discussion, I tried to find a digital archive copy to no avail. In any case, as I clarified, I seem to recall it being directed primarily at drummers in popular music idioms rather than classically trained percussionists, for which I think we're all in agreement on their musical competence. Anyway, i had recalled the use of the term "technician" which is what triggered my thoughts on the process of working with virtual instruments.

All the best,

www.soundcloud.com/dearvillain - Please subscribe!

www.MaestrosCorner.com - concert music by David Carovillano

www.dearvillainmusic.com - music for media by David Carovillano
Posted on Tue, Apr 10 2018 03:27
by agitato
Joined on Mon, Jun 22 2015, Posts 296

Hi Dave

no worries, just wanted to make a point. 



Anand Kumar
Posted on Thu, Apr 12 2018 01:14
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949

Actually the statement that popular music drummers are worse is even more offensive.  

The great drummers of both jazz and rock are supreme artists and for someone to say that stuff is profoundly ignorant.

Posted on Thu, Apr 12 2018 01:28
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949


Posted on Fri, Apr 13 2018 03:44
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 4949

One of the people on this Forum was listing as his example of how live players are vastly superior in performing to samples a tiny trio composition.  It is obvious that espressivo playing by individual players - if they are good enough - will be better than samples most of the time.  Simply because their instantaneous expressions suit the music better at the moment, not because they actually play better.  

But I was never talking about small-scale chamber music played by individuals, even though there are solo strings and Dimension players, etc., by VSL that can actually give many good live players a run for their money. Listen to Jay Bacal's John Williams cello and you will understand what I mean.   

But this person conflated two different things - massive orchestral composition such as what I have done with VSL, and tiny solo pieces such as what he has done.  There is no possible comparison in difficulty, practical, musical or otherwise.  

Some of the greatest composers in history have large scale orchestral works ignored until they die.  Schubert's Ninth - probably the greatest romantic symphony ever being a case in point., etc. etc.   Yet this composer-troll here on this forum implies that if you don't have everything you composed played live - like his tiny little trio -  you are an "idiot" as he calls me.

I would love to hear his performances - live or otherwise - of compositions like these  -not little solo pieces played by his friends,   but massive orchestrations that dwarf his productions.

if he has them, put them on this Forum! I want to hear them!  Here are what I have done, the productions of an "idiot" his term - 


That is a small sampling of my music.  I am now working on a feature film  score, and am neglecting further classical concert works as a result.  I would be able to more properly represent what I've done if I had a publicist but don't have one and am too busy working on music and film to properly present myself.  And so I am afflicted by creeps like this guy who want to trash me and do so publicly, to feel good about themselves.  I find it disgusting. I thought of quitting this Forum, but I won't give them the pleasure...

Posted on Fri, Apr 13 2018 07:44
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 161

Why precisely am I a Troll? 

I called you an idiot because I had commented in the past that I liked some of your music, but that seemed to pass you by in your fury......context Kersten all context. The rest is in your head, nowhere else.

I have no need to trash you publicly because you do a pretty good job of it yourself. You should actually be ashamed of yourself.

Can I request some moderation please VSL as this person has taken everything out of context and it has become cheap and unfounded ad hominem.

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