Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Tue, Nov 26 2019 15:21
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 47
Hello,

In Cubase (10.5), I'm studying the possibility to use Instrument tracks instead of racks + MIDI tracks. My goal is to have instrument tracks hosting Kontakt instruments or whatever (Massive, Zebra, UVI, etc), and insert on them MIR pro plugin in order to spatialize them and have a 5.1 output.
But I can't manage to use instrument tracks in a surround context, they are desperately stereo only. If I route the output to a 5.1 bus for example, the track is still in stereo (the two circles icon), and when I want to insert a surround plugin (like MIR, Vienna Matrix Pro...), its inputs and outputs are in stereo. Only the Vumeter is in 5.1 (but only the L and R channels have activity).
As far as I understand, Cubase sets the number of outputs of the track according to the number of outputs of the instrument plugin. I can do a dumb workaround for Kontakt (setting output with 6 channels as default, close then reload, then add a matrix filter before MIR), but Im' screwed with stereo-only instruments (like Massive, Zebra...).
Can some people help me ?

Matthieu
Posted on Tue, Nov 26 2019 18:50
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

Open the _first_ MIR plug-in in your session by chosing its surround-version, insert it in a 5.1-track of Cubase*), and all will be good. Just keep in mind that the first instance defines the format of the whole project. After this, all you have to do is to select a proper MIR Main Microphone configuration in 5.0 or 5.1 format.

*) Cubase doesn't change a track's output channel number by inserting a plug-in, like Logic or ProTools would do.

Sidenote: MIR Pro in VE Pro can be converted to different output formats by means of the "File > Convert Project Channel Configuration" command.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Nov 28 2019 08:51
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 47

Thanks very much.

Maybe I didn't understand something, but it doesn't work.

Following what you said :

  • I created an instrument track with surround outputs (namely, Absynth, routed on a 5.1 bus), so the instrument track is set to 5.1
  • I inserted the MIR Pro plugin, and set it to 5.1 mics, it works.
  • on an instrument track stereo-only (Kontakt) routed on a 5.1 bus, I inserted MIR Pro plugin, but I got this message from MIR : PLUGIN DISABLED / Reason : Channel configuration mixmatch / Plugin : Stereo / Engine : 5.1 / MIR Pro's channel configuration is defined by the first instantiated plugin. Use MIR Preferences to force channel configurations
  • so in MIR Preferences, I ticked "Force output channels"  and set to 6
  • I retried to insert MIR Pro on the stereo instrument track (after deleting the previous one), and I have the same message (the only difference is that for the field Plugin it says "empty"

I'm using the latest version of MIR Pro plugin, and Cubase 10.5

Matthieu

Posted on Thu, Nov 28 2019 12:46
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

Hi Matthieu,

That's the problem:

Quote:
on an instrument track stereo-only (Kontakt) routed on a 5.1 bus, I inserted MIR Pro plugin, but I got this message from MIR : PLUGIN DISABLED / Reason : Channel configuration mixmatch / Plugin : Stereo / Engine : 5.1

As I wrote before: In Cubase, you can't use a surround plug-in on a stereo track. It simply doesn't work that way. You will have to use MIR Pro in a following surround group-channel if you can't (or don't want to) change the source signal's track to surround. (For audio tracks that's not really necessary as you can put a stereo file on a surround track.)

Nothing that MIR can do about it ... The error message you see is triggered by the fact that the first MIR instance is 5.1, but the channel format is stereo.

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Nov 28 2019 14:40
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 47

Thanks Dietz,

Actually I misunderstood your first post.

Ok, very disappointed. Even if I can't believe in this situation in 2019, I have to accept software limitations and bad designs (from Cubase).

So I will do my stupid workaround : set 5.1 output(s) in Kontakt, then put a Vienna Matrix Mixer Pro instance to reduce it to stereo, then put MIR Pro plugin...

And I will not be able to use MIR for the stereo-only instruments, which is a little bit against one of the aims of MIR...

Thanks again,

Matthieu

Posted on Thu, Nov 28 2019 16:25
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

Originally Posted by: matthieu.lechowski Go to Quoted Post
[...] And I will not be able to use MIR for the stereo-only instruments [...]

I think I don't really understand the issue - sorry to say so. Why would you want to have a mixture of MIR in surround and in stereo? Isn't it either one or the other? 

Mind you: MIR will happily process mono- and stereo inputs in surround setups. It's all about Cubase's way to "think" (in an admittedly counter-intuitive way, but not "wrong" by definition).

Maybe you could tell us what you actually want to achieve ...? I suspect that the solution is simple, but somehow lost in translation (assuming that English isn't our mother tongue ;-) ...).

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Nov 29 2019 09:17
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 47

Ok you're right, let me explain all from scratch.

  • I would like to use instrument tracks in Cubase (actually, for the moment I want to compare with having a template in VE Pro, and see pros and cons of each method).
  • And I want 5.1 for ALL my tracks.
  • As I haven't super-skills in mix engineering and as I own MIR Pro, the natural way is to use the MIR Pro plugin in order to spatialize my instruments (placement in the room, reverb, 5.1 output)

The only problem I have is that the majority of my instruments (Kontakt, Zebra, Massive...) are stereo. In VE Pro, it's not a problem, I put them in MIR and they are in 5.1, voilà ! But in Cubase, with instrument tracks, Cubase sets automatically (without the possibility to manually change, which is bad IMO) the outputs format according to the plugin format.

For the Kontakt instruments, I have a workaround since Kontakt (the plugin) has surround capabilities (we can set the number of channels and outputs we want) even if the instrument/library is stereo :

  • I set Kontakt with 1 output of 6 channels
  • with this (and with a routing to a 5.1 bus), Cubase is happy and sets automatically the ouput format of the Instrument Track in 5.1. The most of the trick is done.
  • but now the stereo output of the instrument is duplicated on the 3 pairs of channels of my 6 channels output (I see 3 stereo pairs side by side). I think can't send this directly in MIR. So I have to filter it, with Vienna Matrix Mixer for example, in order to be in stereo again
  • then, after the Matrix Mixer, I insert MIR Pro plugin, set in 5.1. So I have the same situation as in VE Pro : MIR with stereo in input and 5.1 in output

Now I have 2 problems :

  • maybe having an instance of Matrix Mixer on each of my tracks, so several hundreds instances, is a stupid loss of CPU power.
  • for the other stereo-only plugins, I don't see any solution.

I hope it's clear, indeed english is not my mother tongue :-)

Thanks for your help and your time !

Matthieu

Posted on Fri, Nov 29 2019 22:52
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

OK, I think I understood what you're after. Thanks for the elaborate explanation.

Originally Posted by: matthieu.lechowski Go to Quoted Post
[...]

  • but now the stereo output of the instrument is duplicated on the 3 pairs of channels of my 6 channels output (I see 3 stereo pairs side by side). I think can't send this directly in MIR. So I have to filter it, with Vienna Matrix Mixer for example, in order to be in stereo again

No need to do that. MIR will ignore all input channels except L and R.

Quote:

  • [...] maybe having an instance of Matrix Mixer on each of my tracks, so several hundreds instances, is a stupid loss of CPU power.

Don't bother, really. Working with MIR in surround I see other, more serious bottlenecks kicking in much earlier than several Matrix Mixers which hardly need any CPU cycles anyway. ;-)

Quote:

  • for the other stereo-only plugins, I don't see any solution.

In Cubase/Nuendo, the solution is to route your stereo instruments to surround groups (one for each source) and insert MIR Pro there. And like I mentioned before, stereo audio files will happily play on surround tracks in Cubase/Nuendo.

I know that this could be solved in a more elegant way, but this peculiarity of Cubase applies to all surround plug-ins, not just MIR (... which is at least clever enough to ignore inputs it doesn't use). 

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Dec 01 2019 11:11
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 47

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

No need to do that. MIR will ignore all input channels except L and R.

Great !

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

In Cubase/Nuendo, the solution is to route your stereo instruments to surround groups (one for each source) and insert MIR Pro there. And like I mentioned before, stereo audio files will happily play on surround tracks in Cubase/Nuendo.

Ok !

Originally Posted by: Dietz Go to Quoted Post

I know that this could be solved in a more elegant way, but this peculiarity of Cubase applies to all surround plug-ins, not just MIR (... which is at least clever enough to ignore inputs it doesn't use).

Yes I saw it. Cubase developpers ars so irritating (or at least, they have stupid orders).

Thanks for all these answers and clarifications !

Posted on Sun, Dec 01 2019 14:10
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

You're welcome! :-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Dec 01 2019 14:12
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7305

PS: I've marked this forum-thread as "Solved" to make it clear for the occasional reader that there's some clarification available in this thread. I know that we couldn't actually "solve" the Cubase-related issues. ;-) 

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.