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New Syn'd WW vs WW 1,2,+Special: full and extended
Last post Wed, Mar 24 2021 by William, 19 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2021 16:00
by Nick K-B
Joined on Thu, Jul 22 2004, Oxford, UK, Posts 48

Hi folks,

Just wondering what, if any, are the compelling reasons to do a cross-grade purchase of the new Synchonronized WW if I already own the full woodwind set in the VI range; that's WW1&2, standard and extended, plus the Special WWs standard and extended? In fact, I purchased the VSL CUBE back in 2003/4 (I think), and then continued to add additional instruments as and when they were released for quite some time, stopping at the Dimension Strings 1. 

I tend to use my own reverbs for each project, and sometimes MirPro, and am happy with the options my other reverb units provide along side Mir.

I've been using VSL since about 2001/2 and love them. However, with each new development, such as Dimensions Instruments and Synchron Player, I'm finding it ever more confusing what I'm actually getting for my money by making the investment. 

In a different thread, the same issue is raised, but I still don't find the overall answer compelling to make the move. I'm hoping that by starting a new thread I may be able to get an answer. Quick scoring tools, such as the Big Bang Orchestra are great, although sadly they don't fit with my particular workflow (a little ingrained in the way I do things I guess!). 

The product overview page lists Synchron first as if it is the primary product, yet states the VI series as being the "ultimate" before going into a brief explanation of the starter packs for those new to the VSL family.

It would be really useful to have a simple explanation of what each product does, and where it fits into the spectrum of products on offer, with a clear distinction of what is new, what is old but repackaged, and the main differences which may affect workflow or established workflows. I have nearly 20 years of projects which use my VSL libraries, each with custom keynote triggers and instrument settings inside VIPro and VEPro, and I cannot believe I am the only person out there who purchased the VSL Cube, grew with the changes and development from EXS to VI and VIPro and now face the problem of understanding what, if anything, I am gaining by buying into the new products which seem to repackage or offer fewer options to that which I currently own. Perhaps I'm being a little thick (it wouldn't be the first time ) but I've felt this way for a while, and have shied away from making additional purchases from VSL except for the software aspect of the products. 

VSL is still the centre of my orchestral set-up, which I enhance with other libraries as needed. Please understand, I love what you guys offer, I'm just getting more and more lost in the wave of your creative developments!

Can someone help this confused composer understand what he feels others have already grasped ? I'd be most grateful 

Thank you,

Nick

Incidentally, here's a recently mocked version of the first movement of my bassoon sonata using VSL's Bassoon. I still have some polishing to do, but I love the simplicity of setting up a single VIPro instrument and grid so I can easily chose the articulations I need with key-switches. Hope you enjoy...

https://soundcloud.com/nickthecomposer/bassoon-sonata-1st-movement/s-DCIhSfb1ZYB

MacbookPro 2012, 16G RAM, Mojave, Logic, & lots of external drives!

To progress forwards, one must simply take a step...
Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2021 18:55
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12818

Hi Nick, 

Thanks for posting your questions, and thanks for supporting us for such a long time!
I can see all VI Collections in your account, and I'm happy to hear that you are still enjoying these collections with VI Pro. 

I also see that you have the Epic Orchestra 2.0, so that is a good way to get to know our Synchron Player. It offers a different structure and was mainly designed to accommodates our multi-mic libraries => Synchron products... All new recordings @Synchron Stage Vienna, multiple mics to capture the natural ambience of our scoring stage. 

In the process, we found the interface and new features like Real-Time Time Stretching so attractive that we decided to give our users the option to use their VI Collections with our Synchron Player as well => SYNCHRON-ized products.

My advice: You love your setup and it works for you - stay with it! And expand it with any Synchron Library that fits the sound you are looking for. 

You can also contact us directly with specific questions anytime:

Can't wait to see what other users are thinking about this. 

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Mar 19 2021 14:44
by Nick K-B
Joined on Thu, Jul 22 2004, Oxford, UK, Posts 48

Thanks for your reply Paul.

I will take another look with my Epic Orchestra and see how I get on with it--it's been a while and, well, life gets in the way! I am tempted by the WWs, and want to make sure that I get them at the discounted price (why wouldn't one!), and indeed before the new tax year kicks in! 

I shall keep an eye out as well to see how others respond and if any useful insights can be gleaned from their experiences with the different instruments.

Stay safe, and thanks again.

Nick 

MacbookPro 2012, 16G RAM, Mojave, Logic, & lots of external drives!

To progress forwards, one must simply take a step...
Posted on Fri, Mar 19 2021 17:10
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12818

Hi Nick, 

I forgot to mention that you can test-drive SY-ized WW with a free demo license, available on the product page!

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Mar 20 2021 10:08
by erisno
Joined on Fri, Sep 16 2016, Slovakia, Posts 29

Hi Nick,

I am using VSL libraries only since 2016. What is funny is the fact that I decided to go with Vienna when I saw Guy Bacos' 11 years old video showcasing articulations. He was using the Vienna instruments player 1 (which was already replaced with VI 2). I bought the Special edition Vol. 1 bundle, and after a year, I upgraded to VI Pro. I loved the additional features, and I could not imagine that it could get any better. 

Then the Synchron strings came out, and it needed a newer player. I tried it out with the Epic orchestra 2.0 (as Paul suggested), and even though it hadn't had all the features it has now, I absolutely loved it. Personally, I think that the Synchron player is more user friendly.

With the colours and the dimension tree structure, you clearly know which articulation you are using. The time-stretching opens way more possibilities than VIPro. Even though it doesnţ look so, Synchron player is way more customizable than VIPro - the only limit is your computer. You can have as many SltoXF as you want (VI Pro allows only 4 with 2 layers of articulations). Furthermore, I had always problems setting up the reverb correctly with VI. ( there is worth mentioning that you can disable reverb inside SY player and have the same dry sound as in VIPro) I was also surprised how easy it was to make the switch to SY player - it's like switching from Windows 7 to Windows 10. 

I know that there are still some features missing that were available in VI Pro (like auto divisi, sequencer, app). But I think that VSL is planning to add more features to the Synchron player, but we have to give them time. 

And finally, the most significant difference is in how the instruments react to CC changes. If you have time, download the demo version and try it yourself. But I found that the Synchron Player reacts very differently to  Velocity crossfade than the same instrument in VIPro. It is easier to program the note ends with the Synchron player. I don't know why, but it just sounds better. Also, when you ride VelXF up and down, the transition is different.

Hopefully, I have helped.
Erik

Posted on Sun, Mar 21 2021 23:03
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1813

The selling point for me was some articulations that aren't in the original, eg., Clarinet Bb 1 with that Rhapsody In Blue glissando and some more kind of extended techniques, some key slap and suchlike.

MacBook Pro 16,1: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9
64GB 2667MHz DDR4
OSX 10.15.7
VE Pro 7.1056, Cubase Pro 11.0.0
Posted on Mon, Mar 22 2021 10:48
by Holgmeister
Joined on Fri, Feb 13 2004, Gross Zimmern, Posts 148

Hi Nick,

basically I have the same questions, I am a long time user of VSL and Vienna Instruments+MIRPro fits me very well. It is my "sound" and it took me years to build my workflow (as a hobbyist I have to say). 

I already asked a couple of times about the future of my VSL libraries, but of couse, the answer was always: Try SYNCHRON. 

Which I did and I tried the SYNCHRON version every now and then but I never could make it "sound" for me. 

Pardon my POV, but it is like a too sweet of an ear candy, catering to the YouTube "Make me sound like Cinema BangBoomBang Blockbuster XY"  and it locks me into a prefabricaterd sound. Of yourse I can tweak it, but then I can also tweak my other Vienna Instruments. MirPro is still my best sounding Reverb. And the SYNCHRON Player does not do well next to a MIRPro. In my humble ear experience.

I personally think it is sad that Vienna Instruments Libraries seems like a dead end street, while everything new forces you to use SYNCHRON, I would love to see as much innovation in VI Libraries as it is for SYNCHRON. Imagine what could have been done with the VIPro with some engagement into new releases. But that is obviously not in the VSL future. 

On the other hand, that decline of new stuff for VI was a wake up call to take nothing for granted and I looked into new stuff from other vendors that I would not have checked without the (for me) foreseeable end of VI. 

As a fan boy from day one, I think it is kind of sad to see, when the old stuff disappears. But the SYNCHRON is definitely not my sound for the future. 

But as with any opinion, your milage may vary. 

Orchestral Noise and Magick
Symphonic Cube, Piano, Prepared Piano and MIR24
Posted on Mon, Mar 22 2021 12:11
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12818

Hi Holgmeister, 

The new mixer presets "99 Mir Unprocessed" reset the sound of all SYNCHRON-ized Collections to the sound you know from our VI Collections, so you can use those in MIR Pro just like you did it with your VI Collections. 

These presets have been added to all SYNCHRON-ized products with the latest updates. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Mar 22 2021 17:42
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1151

With the Synchron series, VSL have changed their game. The original VI series was released starting from year 2002. Boulez and Stockhausen where in their mid 70s – aged, but still alive and kicking. Bernard Haitink and Claudio Abbado were leading their orchestras. Jerry Goldsmith was composing the fifth Star Trek movie, while John Williams was still working on the first Harry Potter. The best orchestral libraries we had, at the time, were the ones from Peter Siedlaczek and Miroslav Vitous, and VSL was the glorification of the ending century's orchestral sound.

Twenty years after, many things have changed in orchestral music. The panorama of orchestral film music has been greatly simplified, with a move toward atmospheric music, influenced by electronic rock, moving away from the old melodic, classical-inspired one. Modern classical music has become either more radical (and reserved to an even more niche audience) or extremely simplified, with the extremely popular 'neo-romantic' composers. The audience mixup has changed, with wider access to Western orchestral music to younger listeners coming from different cultures. Classical music performing has become a bit more 'pop', less nuanced, more shiny and spectacular, more immediately communicative. What it has gained is that orchestral music is now more a universal lingua franca, than the expression of a specific culture.

VSL started a series that is more in line with the modern times. Remaking their collection is a huge undertaking, that will take years, if not a full decade. But they found a way to ferry the old libraries to the sound of nowadays. They made the old samples match the shiny sound of the new libraries. Attacks were made more 'nervous'. Softer versions were added for more atmospheric pieces. A set of high-quality digital effects allowed modern sound-shaping and refining. The instruments were placed in a huge space, to go from classical intimate to modern cinematic.

You can turn convolution and artificial reverb off, but I still feel that the new libraries sound different. Yes, they are still them. But it is a bit like looking at Luke Skywalker in The Mandalorian, versus him in A New Hope.

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 06:53
by Holgmeister
Joined on Fri, Feb 13 2004, Gross Zimmern, Posts 148

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

Twenty years after, many things have changed in orchestral music. 

Of course, this is always a good thing, when music evolves, develops and new ways of listening, composing and expressions are rising. 

My VI Symphonic CUbe and MIR is my Vinyl, that stands the test of time. But as with all old, all Vinyl, it is dedicated to a certain corner and certain age of the arts and for me that is fine. But SYNCHRON and BBO, for me again, is the way of the YT generation of BangBoomBang and it is loosing all subtleties. Just my 2cents. And to pick up your picture: 

To quote also a cinematic picture, I feel like at the end of "Mr. Hollands Opus", where not the written Symphony was the goal, but the way alongside and all the peoples live that you touched (or that have touched you) 

I dont want to highjack this threat, enough said. 

Orchestral Noise and Magick
Symphonic Cube, Piano, Prepared Piano and MIR24
Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 13:58
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7742

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

With the Synchron series, VSL have changed their game. The original VI series was released starting from year 2002.

[...] VSL started a series that is more in line with the modern times. [...]

Paolo

Beautiful posting. Thanks, Paolo!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 18:24
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1151

Thank you for reading it, Dietz. But now I feel old, and I think I will hide in the most remote corner of the choir in the Pernegg roompack!

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 18:56
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

The Vienna Instruments are not 20 years old - the original software running the instruments was Gigastudio, an early sampling platform I still have nightmares about.  Vienna Instruments came out much later and was a great advance that has steadily advanced more since then.  Anyone who thinks Synchron or Vienna Instruments software are difficult and unintuitive should try a moldering copy of Gigastudio and write back from the Institute from the Criminally Insane which they will soon be imprisoned within. 

Synchron exists mainly to provide people with a baked-in reverb that uses the hall the company acquired and records scores in. This is  a little ironic, since VSL was originally touted as being great because you could use it with any reverb of your choice instead of being locked in to one - like East West Quantum Leap Orchestra which was its main competitor originally.  Now, the Synchron system does the same approach (with much better sounds of course) using the acoustics of the hall that the instruments were recorded in.  The player is excellent of course, but the previously listed advantages of Synchron over VI are non-advantages  practically speaking, because VI can do anything in music.  What more do you need than that? 

I have been using it since it first appeared and evolved my own system somewhat like what Holgmeister mentioned, customizing all the setups of patches and incorporating MIR when it became available. The great advantage of VI is that it allows you to totally construct your own instruments from the patch level with incredible ease. I have never even once used the massive already set up presets or even matrices. I've always had the attitude, why load a dozen short note articulations when everything in a piece I am playing is legato? So why load every possible sound the instrument can make  instead of construct an instrument tailor made for your own composition, and therefore ideally tweaked for the music? The great thing about VI is how you can create everything from the ground up for your orchestral setup, including the characteristics of the hall or reverb that are radically changeable. It is the ultimate do-it-yourself sample library, even though it is based on the masterfully played and recorded instruments that make up the articulations.  

This is not what everyone wants of course. Many people want everything set up for them in advance and that is what Synchron and other similar libraries today are designed to do.   And one can use it in any number of ways, but I really take issue with the concept that Synchron is new and up to date and Vienna Instruments is old and out of date - that is total bullshit, because VI is based ultimately on the real deciding factor of any sample library - musical performance of great players. That is front and center with Vienna Instruments in the absolute purity of the Silent Stage which gives you total access to every single note of the millions recorded by VSL.  And the player allows total control of how you use those notes, how you control the parameters, and you can tweak easily the controls as well.

In short the Vienna Instruments is a true masterpiece of software engineering and  the idea that it is old-fashioned and out of date is ludicrous. Synchron is another approach to playing the instruments using baked in reverb, and very well designed.  But it is NOT superior, just a different approach, and I really think this downgrading of one in comparison to the other is just plain stupid. 

Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 19:58
by Holgmeister
Joined on Fri, Feb 13 2004, Gross Zimmern, Posts 148

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

Synchron exists mainly to provide people with a baked-in reverb that uses the hall the company acquired and records scores in..........

This is  a little ironic, since VSL was originally touted as being great because you could use it with any reverb of your choice instead of being locked in to one - like East West Quantum Leap Orchestra which was its main competitor originally.  Now, the Synchron system does the same approach (with much better sounds of course) using the acoustics of the hall that the instruments were recorded in.

.....the absolute purity of the Silent Stage which gives you total access to every single note of the millions recorded by VSL.  And the player allows total control of how you use those notes, how you control the parameters, and you can tweak easily the controls as well.

Yes, William, that is exactly my thought. And it was the reason a long time ago why I choose VI over East West and since then ever did. It was the total, detail control over everything and at the end created your own sound. It was a real new approach with the dry silent stage over the Hollywood idea of big and wet sounds. With MIR, you had any detail a room can offer and with new approaches of hybrid reverbs it became even more adventourous.

It was the opposite of baked in reverbs that caters to actual fashions. But people seems to love it and that is fine as well. 

Orchestral Noise and Magick
Symphonic Cube, Piano, Prepared Piano and MIR24
Posted on Tue, Mar 23 2021 23:11
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7742

Originally Posted by: PaoloT Go to Quoted Post

With the Synchron series, VSL have changed their game. The original VI series was released starting from year 2002.

[...] VSL started a series that is more in line with the modern times. [...]

Paolo

Beautiful posting. Thanks, Paolo!

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2021 02:04
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Paolo- 

..."more in line with modern times."

How is that ?  

Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2021 02:06
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Paolo,

So they are both good.  But apparently, we are supposed to think that VI is old and from the obsolete past, and Synchron is "modern times"?   

Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2021 10:49
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1151

William, as far as I can see, nowhere in my post I considered the old bad and the new good. Not to sound defensive, but being in my early Fifties, I'm probably to be included among the good ol' boys, a former revolutionary now suspected to be a conservative.

It's just that the clock is ticking, and I'm worried for the future of orchestral music. In an age where the speakers at the public culture channels identify the music of Beethoven as fascist, and music faculties have replaced hardcore music analysis with sessions on discussion about points of view about music listening, I'm happy to see that orchestral music can still be relevant, and be appreciated by those that will be here when I'll be gone for a long vacation.

Latin literature was no longer relevant, or even hostile, and it is esteemed that we lost 90% of it. Monteverdi scores were used as furniture padding when perceived as obsolete. Making orchestral music compatible with the modern times is probably the only way to make the past compositions still useful and appreciated in the next future. If the orchestral sound texture is as current as the sound of grunge guitars and beatboxes, there is a chance for it to survive.

It is a fact that the "old" VI series was made in its time, and the "new" Synchron series is made in this time. They carry their own time's signature. Whichever I like the most is something that will not stop the time passing.

Paolo

Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2021 15:36
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

I think both Synchron and VI are great.   The company is just moving in a different direction and the sample libraries are to some extent becoming just part of its recording projects though hopefully still be functional into the future.    

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