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Last post Fri, Jun 04 2021 by badibeat, 40 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Apr 03 2021 01:47
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639
This thread was a mistake.
Posted on Sat, Apr 03 2021 05:38
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 533

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

There are rumors and rumblings that Vienna Instruments is going to be discarded as a "Legacy" product.   Does anyone here disagree with this? Please write a response if so.  IT MUST NOT HAPPEN ! 

I find this so disturbing because VI is the best sample library in existence for orchestral composers who want to create their own sound, create their own orchestra.  It allows direct access to the rawest sound of music - the actual performance, unsullied by any processing, on the Silent Stage, of the great musicians of Vienna. This can be done at the PATCH LEVEL allowing total control, easily accomplished within the excellent software of Vienna Instruments.  And then you can place that into any imaginable reverb or environment with flawless integration, including that masterpiece of software, MIR.

Load an articulation. Play.  Load another and switch with a key. Play. It is simplicity itself.  Then save your own unique combo. It allows you to create the EXACT INSTRUMENTS you want, not some big menu-driven, impossible-to-understand monstrosity that forces you to focus on computer programming instead of MUSIC!  

I feel so strongly about this because I've incorporated VI into my basic music thought process. You can think about the articulations needed in a composition, and they are THERE!  Not in some huge preset with all these hidden variables that you HAVE TO USE PROPERLY  OR ELSE! - but every patch right there simply and ready to use directly, based on what the musicians actually did. 

This is the great accomplishment of VSL, beyond any other libraries - they captured the beautiful sounds of great musicians in an orchestra purely and cleanly.  And they did it without any processing beyond just assembling the note performances. That is so great it cannot be overstated.  It is the Zen of sampling. It is the utter simplicity yet greatness of pure music.  It is what was always most needed in sampling but never existed until VSL.  And it has been done brilliantly and with total access by anyone using VI.   

VSL is not making as much money with simply selling samples because everybody and his brother now has a sample library.  But they are garbage compared to Vienna Instruments and must not be allowed to destroy it! 

Vienna Instruments must continue because it is the purest and most powerful digital music performance in existence.   

Relax, William. I heard that the VI Player keeps. But new features will not be implemented anymore.

However, I like the Synchron Player. Especially since I use it with an anti-glare touchscreen. 

And who knows ... I could imagine that we will see a SY Player Pro which probably has Features like from another star ... pushing all existing SY Libraries to new Levels!

Ethereum rules ! The BTC is my friend :)

To the Moon !! 🚀🌙
Posted on Sat, Apr 03 2021 07:29
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

I recently read an answer from Paul, who stated that VI will be supported for the foreseeable future, due to the widespread use from professional customers. I'm happy to be reassured, since I use it the most, despite also using Synchron Player.

Are these rumors from reliable sources?

Paolo

Posted on Sat, Apr 03 2021 13:45
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 162

Hi William,

I agree with what you wrote about VI pro 😊. It has lots of advantages for Silent Stage libraries (just like the Synchron Player has for Synchron libraries). I likewise clearly prefer the former and that's why I basically don't use Synchron (although I have some libraries). 

But I don't see how you got the idea that VI is going to be "discarded". Just two months ago they released a Synchron Stage MIRx plug-in, which only runs in VI (pro) and makes VI libraries finally fully compatible with the Synchron line, in the sense that you can have all VSL instruments conveniently in the same venue. By far most of the present VSL instruments are VI-only and the release of the Synchron venue suggests to me that they do not plan to "synchronize" everything (why would they, given the many advantages the VI player has for these libraries).

Last year there was a major VI pro update (retina support) and just a few month ago there was new sample content released for the VI player (Dimension Ponticellos). So I am confident that they know what a great software they have with VI pro. 

That they market the Synchron Player to new users, is as far as I understand since they get a self-contained package this way (without purchasing VI pro and MIRx venues in addition), that is a bit simpler to use/get accustomed to (but at the same time, as you write, also more restricted).

So I agree with LAJ: relax 😊.

Cheers

Kai

Posted on Sat, Apr 03 2021 19:23
by daviddln
Joined on Tue, Feb 25 2014, Posts 215

Hi

Both Paul and Ben promised that VSL will never discontinue the VI Series.

Best, David

iMac 21.5, i7 4770S, 3,1 Ghz, 16 GB RAM
Komplete Kontrol S-88, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre
Logic Pro X, Finale 26
Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 01:39
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

shouldn't have written anything...

Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 08:20
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 162

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
... despite not having as many "dimensions" or layers of menu-driven pre-programmed automation, you can do anything with VI musically speaking. You have total control over ever possible MIDI parameter. And you can create your own setup which is very easy to use. That is ideal.

Actually VI pro does offer the "dimensions" if programmed appropriately ("3D-control"):

https://www.articulate-preset.com

VI libraries include the required broad variety of sampled versions, while VI pro is at the same time flexible enough to take all of them into account and efficient enough to indeed simultaneously control various musical parameters, like section size, vibrato, attack, legato, muting, bowing position, ... .

As you write, a big advantage of VI pro is its flexibility, which allows users to work in any way they like: they can use a full-featured preset, or start with an empty VI pro instance and add individual matrices (with all the continuous control already set up) as needed, and where necessary even build their own matrices from scratch out of individual patches while working on a project.

Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 16:05
by daviddln
Joined on Tue, Feb 25 2014, Posts 215

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

This was a hysterical overwritten post of mine so I edited it, but I mainly wanted to state that I am hoping Vienna Instruments will continue as it is extremely flexible and well-designed especially for creating your own presets and instruments using the patches, deciding what controllers you want to use, how to combine things, etc.

I think VSL will still support VI/VI Pro for a very long time. But there will probably be less and less libraries recorded at the Silent Stage. The focus seems to be on Synchron now.

iMac 21.5, i7 4770S, 3,1 Ghz, 16 GB RAM
Komplete Kontrol S-88, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre
Logic Pro X, Finale 26
Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 16:22
by Jos Wylin
Joined on Mon, Dec 03 2012, Belgium, Posts 664

I agree with Wiliam. VI (Pro) was and still is a very valuable and flexible player. It offers everything a composer could need to perform his/her work virtually with the highest possible realism. In fact, nobody was waiting for another approach. 

Thanks to VSL, we could create our ensembles and orchestras with the best recorded and controllable samples ever. The instruments are not cheap, but worth their money. The only really tricky part is for most users the ambience and natural sound of the instruments in a room. For that purpose, MIR was developed, again a great bonus, although many other reverb and IR plugins can be used as well to the taste of the user. VE Pro provides the necessary environment to complete decent complex mixes... All very interesting and helpful products. I think everybody will agree on this. The acquisition of the Synchron studios is perhaps a giant step for VSL, but not necessarily for us. I understand that some people want to perform their music the easy way with prerecorded positions and acoustics, but not everybody shares that need or opinion. I won't speak badly about Synchron as I'm convinced that Vienna will offer the same quality like for the VI instruments and it is certainly worth trying, but again...it comes with a considerable price.

For that reason, I hope that the huge investments on our side in the VI instruments won't be wasted because of a new approach. VI has more than proven its value. Therefore I explicitly want to ask Vienna NOT to abandon the VI series, both in support and development (instruments and player).

Jos

Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 17:14
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 313

For me, it's not the player, it's about the samples.

It's curious: I don't like the sound of any of the Synchron libraries, but I do like the VI instruments put into the Synchron MIR venue. This combination really shows the quality and the strength of the VI series (together with some of Dietz' wizardry).

It's their legacy, this is true, and it's still way superior to all libraries I own and never use. VSL did everything right in the first place: the recording, the quality control, the scripting. If you want to play/perform a virtual instrument like a real instrument, you have to buy VSL or the real thing. Even though there are good "modeled" libraries out there, they don't sound good. VSL is so well scripted, it's nearly like a modeled one.

It's good to have options, and I totally understand that new users would probably go the Synchron way, because it's "mixed" out of the box. But maybe it's due to a lack of marketing, I don't know, and I don't want to blame anyone. VSL is so humble, in my opinion, they have achieved a lot with the VI series, and there isn't much talk about it. New users really don't know the real benefits of the VI (and also Synchron) libraries, why they are different to others and what the performance patches stand for.

I also don't like that VI prices have been reduced to, say, more competitive ones. Yes, you heard correctly. For example: Two years ago I paid nearly twice the price for Dimension Strings. You get a crazy amount of articulations and samples, you don't have legato crossfades; VSL's legato recording is the king of legato sampling and, of course, it should be more expensive than others... It's really a shame. A competitive library doesn't have the famous performance repetitions, trills and legato, it's a totally different "experience". And you have absolutely no bugs, latency or crappy programming. I don't need 20 microphone positions. :D

My advice: redo the website, clearly show the USPs and what the libraries can do (better than others). Don't be so humble, do some bragging like the others, because you are the only one who definitely earn it.

Posted on Sun, Apr 04 2021 18:12
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
I still prefer many things about vipro also. And the VI library is simply put the best in the business, mature and not antiquated. I have cross graded to a number of synchronized libraries because it was quite affordable and still I prefer using the VIpro versions usually together with mirpro.
Posted on Mon, Apr 05 2021 15:12
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

(Incidentally, it's probably my preferred piece by Carla Bley — End of VIenna. I think it would work great with Synchron instruments!)

Posted on Tue, Apr 06 2021 01:44
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

I really shouldn't comment on the company's decisions - they know what they are doing.

Posted on Tue, Apr 06 2021 14:11
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 1118

VI libraries are still irreplaceable. It is true that most of the music composed will be made for a standard orchestra, set as in the standard configuration dictated by Stokowski one century ago; but this doesn't end the game.

Particular setups are still required. It may be niche, but this is part of how the music works: sometimes help people relax, some other (the more interesting of the times) surprise the listener. Unseen orchestra density and placement of instruments are two of the most powerful devices.

Dry instruments and a powerful and easy-to-use spatializer like MIR are great for the composer always trying to try things in a different way. Yes, most of the music will probably sound in that particular way, tasting as it is expected to taste. But then, there will be someone curious enough to want to explore a wider (or narrower!) horizon and make the music resound in a huge sacred place, or in the most intimate of the rooms; or extend the time span, experimenting with the same setups of the time of Mozart, or imagine an unseen futuristic configuration.

I'm reading Berio's Formazioni, and doing a mockup at the same time. It is a piece for a large orchestra set in a very unusual way (sort of a mix between a spiral and a kaleidoscope). Berio was trying to make the sound bounce all around the listener, with instrumental sections broken in sort of a sophisticate responsory. Try this with a multimic library. With MIR, you can!

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Apr 06 2021 14:57
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

.

Posted on Tue, Apr 06 2021 15:41
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
It’s actually the specific reason I bought any vsl libraries to begin with!

The synchron concept is also very good for many people so I understand the drive for it but I just prefer Dry libs with mirpro. I’m also not in a rush, if I were a working film composer or doing a lot of trailers then I’d be a lot more interested in BBO and synchron series because faster results to a classic big Hollywood sound

I’m still undecided about synchronized vs vipro player. Somehow I feel better using vipro most of the time, and I’m still a relative novice with both players. There are pros and cons. With synchronized you can easily turn off the IR’s to have dry sound, but there are other differences between the two players; I am actively trying to use them both a bit to get comfortable with either one.



Posted on Thu, Apr 08 2021 02:46
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

Originally Posted by: Jos Wylin Go to Quoted Post

I agree with Wiliam. VI (Pro) was and still is a very valuable and flexible player. It offers everything a composer could need to perform his/her work virtually with the highest possible realism. In fact, nobody was waiting for another approach. 

Thanks to VSL, we could create our ensembles and orchestras with the best recorded and controllable samples ever. The instruments are not cheap, but worth their money. The only really tricky part is for most users the ambience and natural sound of the instruments in a room. For that purpose, MIR was developed, again a great bonus, although many other reverb and IR plugins can be used as well to the taste of the user. VE Pro provides the necessary environment to complete decent complex mixes... All very interesting and helpful products. I think everybody will agree on this. The acquisition of the Synchron studios is perhaps a giant step for VSL, but not necessarily for us. I understand that some people want to perform their music the easy way with prerecorded positions and acoustics, but not everybody shares that need or opinion. I won't speak badly about Synchron as I'm convinced that Vienna will offer the same quality like for the VI instruments and it is certainly worth trying, but again...it comes with a considerable price.

For that reason, I hope that the huge investments on our side in the VI instruments won't be wasted because of a new approach. VI has more than proven its value. Therefore I explicitly want to ask Vienna NOT to abandon the VI series, both in support and development (instruments and player).

Jos

That's so true and it seems like a commercial fact that is happening with VI - it is not as monetarily rewarding as something more instant.  This is a huge problem because it is also better than the instant things precisely BECAUSE it is not instant.  It can be used with other systems of audio in the most pristine way, because of the Silent Stage which is the most  significant development by far of VSL.  Though now it is being shunted into "legacy" which is wrong.

Posted on Thu, Apr 08 2021 03:19
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

I think its probably a mistake to label VI instruments as "Legacy".  Have VSL done so?  If they did, don't take the word to mean the wrong thing.  "Legacy" could mean "discontinued" to one person and "classic" to another.  

They are still actively sold.  They still represent today the best full orchestral package on the market today with the most instruments, articulations, quality of programming and software support.  I don't see that ending any time soon.  Even somewhat recently VSL updated VI player for HiDPI, so its not like they are cutting it off from support.

It is true that in recent years they've been doing a lot more development in the Synchron space...with Synchron multi-mic packages...the BBO series...the synchronized series...  But ultimately, the VI series still represents one overall cohesive and complete orchestral package...and they are still quite a ways away from having the same thing reproduced in the Synchron player, if ever.  Instead they have been doing a lot of BBO stuff lately..  etc..  nothing wrong with them coming up with new products to sell.  Just because they haven't been adding any new innovations to VIPro doesn't mean the product is legacy or even remotely close to "dead".  Let's not panic eh?

With the Synchron series, they are taking advantage of their purchased real estate to provide a different approach with baked in samples..and there are many users out there that do appreciate and prefer that approach, so why not give it to them?  

Anyway, what is missing from VI that anyone feels needs to be added?  I feel they have covered the orchestra rather comprehensively in the VI series...its a masterpiece!  VSL will still be selling it in 10 years from now as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not even sure what if anything they could change in VIPro, if they had unlimited resources to do that, which they don't.  But what exactly?  Yea I'd like to see something like the Synchron mixer in VIPro maybe, but honestly....I don't really need it.  

Posted on Thu, Apr 08 2021 04:03
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

.

Posted on Thu, Apr 08 2021 10:14
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 313

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

The thing that VI needs to have added is Dimension Strings IV, which is extended techniques, sampled trills to larger intervals,  unusual experimental sounds done with the same Dimension approach.   

But it's true that VSL has done a huge amount with VI already and is an amazingly complete library for orchestra.  Especially if you get all the string libraries which when taken together, create a hugely varying ensemble.  

No one knows for sure, but I really wish there will be more Silent Stage recordings. Dimension Strings VI all the way, I also miss trills and FX sounds.

But also other instruments which haven't been recorded yet, beyond the term "orchestral". These are available from other developers, but to have them with VSL's quality and playability would be awesome:

  • Asian instruments
  • World percussion
  • World winds (e.g. pan flutes, uilleann pipes, bag pipes, duduk)
  • Medieval instruments (e.g. lute)
  • ...
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