Panning

[plurye]

Hi all,

I realize there are complex strategies for placing VIs in a 3D field to achieve sonic realism, involving IR verbs and the like. As a quick and dirty alternative, though, I'm curious - what do people think of the results of simply panning the outputs of each VI's instrument track within DP or Logic to approximately "locate" sounds? I've noticed that VI is not programmed to respond to MIDI panning.

While we're at it, I'd also appreciate being directed to a thread or two about the fancy-shmancy way to do this (with IR verbs). At the moment I'm hosting VI on a slave Mac Pro, with a bunch of instances in DP (which is just serving as a host program) and a bunch of standalones.

Thanks,
Peter

[cwillsher]

Hi Peter,

Once you have your template set up, the 'fancy' 3D panning is little more troublesome than panning in the normal way. In fact you don't even need to stick to a full orchestral template as such...

I've setup the distance or stage positions (with slightly modified IR settings) on three different busses and also saved my favoured VI instrument presets, together with any EQ and directional panning, as Channel strips within Logic. So I can now work with any combination of instruments very quickly and have them positioned on the stage ready to go, just by loading the relevant Channel strip (which in turn loads the VI patch and recalls the panning) and assigning the output to one of the three 'distance' busses for the 3D effect.

It's just the initial tinkering with the IRs that takes a little while but really it's not a major hassle - trying to create consitent, flexible and memorable VI patches for all the available instruments has been far more demanding on my time.

Hetoreyn produced an excellent PDF describing how the basic 3D IR concept works within Logic's environment. It's a while since I downloaded that and I don't have the link anymore but if you can find his website I'm sure it's still lurking there somewhere - sorry...it's late!

Good Luck!

Colin

[plurye]

Thanks - I'll check it out. Sounds like a great system. I'm a DP user but I imagine I can adapt.

The meaning of the other part of my question was really, "What happens to the stereo imaging when you pan a VI's output, without IR verbs?" I.e., are there phasing issues, loss of quality, etc.

PL

[cwillsher]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe so - you just wouldn't get the virtual depth of field. The only thing to be aware of is that all the instruments are recorded in centered-stereo, so using the standard pan control on an instrument channel will alter the balance of the recorded samples - you need to use the equivalent of Logic's Directional Mixer plug-in to narrow the width of the recordings so that they can be placed effectively in the stereo field.

There's lot's more about this stuff in the Mixing & Post-Production forum.

C

[plurye]

@cwillsher said:

- you need to use the equivalent of Logic's Directional Mixer plug-in to narrow the width of the recordings so that they can be placed effectively in the stereo field.

C

Thanks - the idea of narrowing the stereo width before panning is an interesting one. Not sure how I'd do that in DP, but worth exploring.

PL

[dsstudio]

Use Waves Plug-ins called "image" should do what you want

[dpcon]

@plurye said:

Thanks - the idea of narrowing the stereo width before panning is an interesting one. Not sure how I'd do that in DP, but worth exploring.PL

Use the plugin Trim in DP. It's pretty obvious how it works.

[plurye]

Both are great suggestions -- thanks.

PL

[Mahlon]

@plurye said:

Thanks - the idea of narrowing the stereo width before panning is an interesting one. Not sure how I'd do that in DP, but worth exploring.PL

Use the plugin Trim in DP. It's pretty obvious how it works.

Is there another name for the image plug-in? I can't find it at their site.

Thanks,
Mahlon

[dpcon]

'Trim' is a plugin that comes with DP. You will find it in the menu with all the other plugins (eq's etc.) at the top of audio or aux channel strips.

[Mahlon]

Sorry dpcon, I quoted the wrong post; I meant to ask about the "image" plug-in from waves.


Mahlon

[plurye]

Waves has two products that deal with stereo positioning - S1 Imager and PS22 Spread.

PL

[Dietz]

PS-22 is a processor to create "stereo" from a mono source, it is not what you want to use for panning. The S-1 Imager is my first choice for panning tasks, although the simple concept of independent panners for left and right channel does the trick most of the time, too.

For true "3D-panning" in a surround-setup, the Waves S-360 is a very powerful tool, BTW.

[plurye]

FWIW PS-22 can be used on stereo tracks as well (otherwise, why would you be able to instantiate it on a stereo track, and why would there be factory presets like "Gentle Stereo Enhancer"?) I've used it as a stereo enhancer many times. But I agree that it's not the right choice for the simple panning issue we're discussing here.

PL

[Dietz]

Plurye,

of course you need the PS-22 on a stereo-track, but you start with a mono _signal_ (... otherwise the results would be mono too). The PS-22 is based on a series of EQs with diametrically opposed settings on each side, so it's not a conventional panning device:

-> http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=231

The website cleary states that this is mostly a tool for introducing artificial pseudo-stereo information on an orginally monophonic source.

... but on the other hand - "If it sounds right, it is right!", so don't hesitate to use the PS-22 if it fits you needs. [:)]

[plurye]

I will confess, I didn't actually know what the difference was between the S1 and the PS22, so thanks for clarifying (you know, I always wondered what the difference was...). That said (sorry, can't resist mounting a defense for my case, even if it's pretty feeble(:=)), the website says:

"Ideal for audio restoration, sound effects, guitar leads, and more, the PS22 is unsurpassed for Mono to Stereo emulation, enhancing individual tracks, and rebalancing the spatial imaging of stereo mixes."

The last use mentioned in the quote is what I was referring to. Generally a plugin that REQUIRES a mono source will get instantiated on a mono audio track (or aux track), which it will then convert into a stereo track. The fact that you can instantiate it on a stereo track to begin with means that it is sometimes used on stereo material.

BUT... you're right, it's definitely not the tool to use for the panning purposes we've been discussing. And I'm glad to know that it's primary use is mono-to-stereo conversion.

PL