Pro Edition Strings, opinions ?

[muziksculp]

HI,

I am on the path to purchasing VSL pro edition, in the Exs24 format, in the near future. I would like to hear users comments about how they like the Strings ?

I consider timbre, and playability, very important factors, warmth, bow attack sounds, flexibility to be used in various applications (i.e. Soundtrack, Classical, Baroque, New Age,...etc.).

In a review of VSL in the Dec. 2003 issue of Keyboard Magazine by John Krogh, a comment was made by the reviewers of VSL (Ernie Rideout, and Steve Porcaro) regarding the Strings of VSL, here is the quote :

" We both felt the brass and woodwinds blended well together, but had a harder time with the strings, I missed the warmth and broad sound that a big string ensamble is capable of. Steve thought "they just seem to lay kind of funny together with everything else". these are subjective criticisms, to be sure."

This took me by surprise, quite critical IMHO, They are commenting about the Strings (a crucial part of the orchestra) I do understand it is very subjective, but again, String section sounds are the most important in my work. What do current users think, and is the comment made in Keyboard magazine based on anything the string section of VSL lacks or ....? . Bottom line is, Do you think the VSL pro strings deliver ? Your comments ?


Thanks.

[Carter]

i think you can do everything with vsl strings, that's just a question of melody and EQ , just listen to "SR-The Traveller" by Simon Ravn in the User Demos Area, you'll see that the strings really sound goods.

[dpcon]

I think it's true that the VSL strings are not really warm and lush - elastic and full bodied. But that's the general V14 violins. Most the articulations are top notch. I don't know what the answer is. Herb and company are very responsive so I'm sure there will be something in the future to rectify the situation. Perhaps the smaller ensembles in the works will be an answer.

The VSL muted strings are the best that money can by and leave nothing to be desired btw.

Dave Connor

[Nigel Watson]

[I] Perhaps the Silent Stage is partly responsible for this common response. Most other string libraries were recorded a lot less closely, often with considerable ambience, which is generally flattering to the sound and gives it more "body"and homogenity. I still use -for example-
Peter Siedlacek's original strings -as do many composers- probably for this reason.

VSL sounds have a lot of detail, this is a great strength of the library; but they sometimes demand more thought in arranging and mixing (which articulation, which eq, which reverb) than other string sections. Sampled strings made to sound good "out of the box" are great for some purposes but maybe won't always work for all your needs. When comparing VSL with other libraries -if you have that advantage- try to match the EQ and space character before you from your opinion.

Or just buy VSL. You're unlikely to regret it!

Nigel

[muziksculp]

Thanks for your valuable feedback, I still feel that I need a bit more info. on the strings, so, here are a few more questions , and remarks (hope not too many).

Q1) Besides the post production type editing, such eq, reverb, compression, etc. Do users feel there is a need to edit the programs (presets) that were created by the Vienna team?

such as the amplitude attack, and release envelopes, layering, controller assignments, filters,...etc.) to customize the strings to your liking, for example, do the mp3 demos on this website just play the preset programs without doing any modification to their parameters, or are the programs tweaked by the composer/performer ?

I ask this because I feel that when working with Rom based samples on keyboards, I will most likely have to edit these parameters to achieve a more fluid, and flexible sound, otherwise it is kind of rigid, and will not fit my needs.

Q2) How do you like the timbre of the Vienna strings ?

I feel that timbre, is hard to fix, or change, most of the time a nice timbre is either captured in the samples or not, I don't feel that by adjusting EQ, and adding Reverb will solve the timbre problem, but EQ and reverb can fix the placement and perception of the strings in a mix, so they blend better, and sound more realistic, and three dimensional.

Q3) I am also aware that there are plans later this year to release " The Symphonic Cube" which adds the small string ensembles, additional solo strings, and many other enhancements to the current Pro-Edition, 24 and 16 bits sample versions to choose from, and will be even available on HD media. Any release date ? Pricing ?

A smaller string section would be a nice addition to the current larger strings (especially for Baroque applications, and to get a more intimate string section sound). Any feedback from the VSL development team as to when we can expect this to be a reality.

Q4) Is the General V14 violins the main issue when it comes to the strings, as far as not having enough warmth, elasticity, and lushness, or is it the entire string library that lacks these qualities ? and would this be fixed by VSL if it is an issue ?

A final remark, A few more mp3 demos that expose the strings (without any brass, and/or orch. percussion to mask them), and do a good job at making them warm, fluid, lush, and alive with motion, rich timbre, realistic bowing sounds, would also help.

Quite a bit of questions, and remarks, I know, but it makes me nervous to go ahead with such a investment before knowing if it will satisfy my musical needs, I am a DP4 user, so I purchased Logic 6, and Exs24mk2, and will be upgrading my Mac from a G4 dual to a G5 dual, add memory, drives, learning Logic, exs24mk2, just to use VSL on a Mac, and finally, purchase VSL Pro. Wow ! quite a leap forward, and a steep learning curve ahead.

Thanks again, this is a great forum, your feedback would help me sleep much better .

: - )

[Nick Batzdorf]

@Another User said:

" We both felt the brass and woodwinds blended well together, but had a harder time with the strings, I missed the warmth and broad sound that a big string ensamble is capable of. Steve thought "they just seem to lay kind of funny together with everything else". these are subjective criticisms, to be sure."

Hm. "Interesting" opinion.

Curiously, I happen to like this review:

http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_vienna_symphonic_library_5/index.htm

The writer's a very shady character, but I almost always agree with everything he says... [6]

[forester]

I'm sure every sample library has its strong and weak points. I agree that the violins and the lower octave contra bass are a little less than magical overall. But they still have their fine points and wonderful sounds too. The dynamic range seems quite limited in the ensemble sets. The combination of pizzicato options sounds particularly nice IMHO as well as the sol ponticello and sordino. The harp, solo violin, solo cello, cello ensemble and violas sound consistently amazing.

And yes, the style of recording does seem to demand extra attention in post processing to give the strings a complimentary timbre and spatial presence. Don't forget that you'll want to double the violins with separate pans, delays, ambience, etc., to reproduce the first and second sections.

Do I regret having purchased them? Not in the least. But I'll always have a dream of perfection lying there that will probably nver be realized.

[nathanmj]

Completely apart from emphasis of this thread so far, I find it disappointing that most programs have only two velocity layers. Yes, there are modulation wheel tricks available, but it seems to me that these programs were conceived for a far less powerful generation of computers than those available today, hence the omission of third fourth and fifth layers. Pity. How wonderful these strings could sound with a more realistic range of velocity-responsive timbres.

Any plans to add layers?

[Markus S]

Well, I just got them and I am pretty amazed. They are indeed not so warm sounding, but not "synthy" at all. Rather dry I'd say, but very realistic. As many pointed out the detail is amazing. We are not far from hearing 14 violins seperatly [:D].
It is true that there are not enough velocity layers, but there is a lot of choice of articulations / attacks which is very impotant for the flexibility.
The only real problem for me is....: now I want the woodwinds [:D]

[Dietz]

@muziksculp said:

[...]
Q4) Is the General V14 violins the main issue when it comes to the strings, as far as not having enough warmth, elasticity, and lushness, or is it the entire string library that lacks these qualities ? and would this be fixed by VSL if it is an issue ?
[...]

Quite obviously, _we_ like the way how our string-samples sound (and many others too) , so there's nothing to be "fixed".

To make a long answer short: This is as real as it gets.

[silly comparisons mode ON:]

Think of Mousse au Chocolat - one version out of the box from your super-market's freezer ("instant rewarding!", but tastes like anything else after you enjoyed the first, super-sweet mouthfull), or the nice hand-filled little pot you would get from a Chef de la Cusine in a 5-star hotel in the vicinery of Paris (where it takes some time to make it from the pure ingredients, but which gets better with each spoon; and yes, it's even more expensive.)

[/silly comparisons mode OFF]

All the best,

/Dietz


PS: ... somtimes there are people asking for Ketchup, evan - (no, pardon): even in these restaurants, you know ... ;-]

[Nick Batzdorf]

Markus, you understand the point to the way they were recorded, right? Just wondering, because you said "rather dry."

VSL's studio has a very short reverb time by design. The Legato tool wouldn't work with recorded ambience...at least that's the conventional wisdom; thinking about it, I think it actually might.

But in any case, VSL is supposed to sound all wrong until you put it in a good reverb.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Mm, yum: ketchup on chocolate mousse! Put some sardines on top of that and you've really got a good dessert...

[:D]

[William]

I remember that review, Nick. A fine piece of writing.

These Keyboard "reviewer" personages who write "they just seem to lay kind of funny together" don't know what the hell they're talking about and should learn how to use samples. Anyone who can't make the VSL strings sound good is a complete idiot.

The VSL is by far the best available, bar none, and the "lushness" etc. is dependent upon your orchestration, eq, compression, and mix in general. If you don't believe that, just listen to these demos! You don't like that sound? What do you want? If that isn't lush, I don't know what is. And I have heard or used all the libraries available.

BTW it is not true that everything in VSL strings is two velocity layers. The sustains, detaches and staccatos are three or more, and only the basses have two.

[Carter]

I really like Flautando Strings

[Dietz]

@Carter said:

I really like Flautando Strings

Thanks! Me too. - One of the most difficult samples, recording-wise ... [[:|]]

/Dietz