Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

182,334 users have contributed to 42,219 threads and 254,757 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 3 new thread(s), 10 new post(s) and 49 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. Instruments position into the orchestral

  • Instruments position into the orchestral

    G
    G

    Heya all,

    Its been fews days i keep look and look and still can't find something right. I am trying to make an orchestral i will can use everytime for video game and movie music but can't find a general instruments position orchestral. I found some pics on net but after listen some movies/video game music i love a lot its not matching with the diferent pics. Here you can see diferents pics of orchestral positions : Orchestral1 

    Anyone could help me find a general orchestral position who are most used on movie and video game music? I have listen The imperial march, Final fantasy 7 movie and the rite of spring but i can't find any of this pics matching them, or maybe is it me who are wrong because i have found my monitoring was making sound strange like if all was moved a bit to much on the right side.

    And i must admit after all those hours of listening i start having hard time can say where is wich instruments i guess my hears need a big rest lol.

    Thanks by advance for the help ^.^
  • C
    C

    It's subjective -- whatever you like can be. However, if you're not going with one of those big orchestra layouts in the above pictures, I suggest putting the bassy instruments in the middle of the stereo spectrum to ensure that the bass power is distributed across both speakers/earphones in a home listening environment, even though most graphs have the basses and tuba on the right. It sounds more balanced.

    And I wouldn't pan the strings too wide unless you want every little detail to be listened to, because it can sound cartoonish. Maybe -10 for the violins and +10 for the cellos, with violas in the centre. But if the strings are playing in unison most of the time, you can get away with panning them wider and it will give it fullness.

    I would distribute the woodwinds and brass to the left and right as you please, such that when everything is playing, the left and right channels are equally engaged. Again, no really extreme panning unless it's for a certain effect.

    To differentiate between closer and farther instruments, use less (closer) or more (farther) reverb. But don't overdo it.

    That's just my ideas on the topic, someone else will probably disagree.
  • S
    S

    Hi ,

    The above pictures all pretty much the same just with different shaped rooms and some added instruments. There can be differences with the live orchestra and "Movie " orchestra.

    Basically though,

    1st violins on the left, 2nd Violins next to them (to the right) then Violas in the middle, Cellos on the right side(opposite 1st Violins) and Basses behind them. 

    Behind the Strings from left to right

    French Horns, Flutes,Oboes,Clarinets,bassoons, Trumpets,Trombones,Tuba.

    Behind them Percussion spread left to right. 

    Bells, Mallets and then drums and Timpani.

    In Movie writing they often move the Basses to the middle of the mix so that the "bass" is not one sided. Also you might want to angle the violas from the dead center so that they don't fight the basses if you do that.

    Another possibility is to put the 1st violins on the left and the 2nd Violins on the right of the conductor and put the Violas and cellos in between them. This can bring more balance depending on what you are composing.

    I also experiment with percussion positions as I find the Timps can get lost with the low end strings so I bring them a little more center too.

    This is very basic and I'm sure other people will have their thoughts, 

    M.
  • G
    G

    Heya and thanks for have answer ^.^

    @clamnectar, i agree that is subjectif and i kinda can do whatever i would like to. But i try to make a setup who wouldnt chock to much people who are not used of none ordinary positions.

    @Samplin, i agree about the description for the diferent pics and for the timpani case.

    At start i wanted make the same one as the 1st pic but after listen diferent music it wasn't what i wanted, or like i said i having my monitoring not making sound like it should. I have think about make a setup but i wasn't sure if it can work well. Here the setup i have think :

                           Gong/Cymbal/Triangle    BassDrum     Timpani     Tubular Bell  Snare  Vibra/Xylophone/glockenspiel             

                                                            French Horns           Trombones   Trumpets   Tuba

                                               Piano            Clarinets     Bass Clarinet  Bassoons   Contra Bassoon

                                                       Harp         Flutes     Oboes     Piccolo   English Horn

                                                                         Violas                                    Cellos/Basses   

                                                           1st Violins                        I                               2nd Violins

    I have think about that position but i am not sure the balance will be that good. From diferent music i have listen most of time i found the trumpet was sounding a lot on right side.

    Feel free to say me what you thinking about it nd thanks a lot for the help ^.^
  • A
    A

    concerning the strings this is almost a german seating that you apply. the german seating rather looks like that:

                                        Basses

                                            Celli        Violas

                                 1st Violin                    2nd Violin

    your setup will probably work as well, but it will sound a little awkward, because itĀ“s not usual to seat the strings like that

    generally speaking, the german seating is suited better for pieces with elaborate counterpoint and the american seating for elaborate harmony.

    edit: a further suggestion... i think, it is more reasonable to swap the seating of trumpets and trombones, so that the bass- and tenor instruments of the brass are together. furthermore i donĀ“t think it is a good idea to intersect the woodwinds. keep the flutes together, donĀ“t put the oboes in between flutes and piccolo. and therefore also keep the oboes and the english horn together. usually the piccolo is played by a "normal" flutist who switches instruments during the piece... it is very unlikely that a flutist will change places ;) even if there is a dedicated player, the balance will be much better and natural sounding, if the groups stay together. it is of course not prohibited to seat the players like you did, but as far as i know, noone does so... but if it works and you like it, well... donĀ“t bother and keep it...
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @aural said:

    concerning the strings this is almost a german seating that you apply. the german seating rather looks like that:

                                        Basses

                                            Celli        Violas

                                 1st Violin                    2nd Violin

    your setup will probably work as well, but it will sound a little awkward, because itĀ“s not usual to seat the strings like that

    generally speaking, the german seating is suited better for pieces with elaborate counterpoint and the american seating for elaborate harmony.

    edit: a further suggestion... i think, it is more reasonable to swap the seating of trumpets and trombones, so that the bass- and tenor instruments of the brass are together. furthermore i donĀ“t think it is a good idea to intersect the woodwinds. keep the flutes together, donĀ“t put the oboes in between flutes and piccolo. and therefore also keep the oboes and the english horn together. usually the piccolo is played by a "normal" flutist who switches instruments during the piece... it is very unlikely that a flutist will change places šŸ˜‰ even if there is a dedicated player, the balance will be much better and natural sounding, if the groups stay together. it is of course not prohibited to seat the players like you did, but as far as i know, noone does so... but if it works and you like it, well... donĀ“t bother and keep it...

     

    Say Aural, Thank you for posting the German seating arrangement.  I write a lot of counterpoint and I've noticed that my counter melodies get lost in the American seating.  I've noted your string set up but, if you have the time, I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this seating arrangment as it applies to the rest of the orchestra, winds, Brass, etc.

    I think the German seating would be better suited for my work.

    Thank you
  • A
    A

    the seating of the winds does not really differ from the american seating... it also depends on the conductorĀ“s taste, but a possible seating is that:

                                                 Percssion                 Timpani

                                       Horns           Trumpets       Trombones/ Tuba

                           Basses    Flutes  Clarinets        Oboes   Bassoons

                           Basses              Celli                     Violas

                                    1st Violins                                 2nd Violins

    depending on the space available and the taste of the conductor, the clarinets may stt behind the flutes and the bassons behind the oboes, between horns and trumpets. i also think some people like to seat flutes and clarinets in a row and behind that oboes and bassoons, yet i donĀ“t particularly like that. matter of taste.

    actually the german seating is displayed in one of the graphics. it is the second from the bottom. but as i said: depending on the available space and the taste of the conductor, that can vary a little.
  • G
    G

    Heya,

    Thanks aural for your description it make a lot of sence and confirm what i have can see on diferent live i checked on youtube.

    I have listen lot of diferent music and watch diferent live and here is a partial setup i thinking to use all are free to say what you thinking about it. For the moment i don't know yest where i will put the snare i thinking on right side but need think about it more.

                               Tubular Bell   Triangle/Cymbal  Bass drum

                                   Xylo/Vibraphone/Glockenspiel  Timpani                                    Trombones  Tuba

                                        Piano   French Horns Clarinets B.Clar    Bassoons C.Bassoon Trumpets

                                                  Harp       Piccolo     Flutes            Oboes  English Horn

                                                             2nd Violins                                    Violas

                                                     1st Violins                                                Cellos/Basses

    I think it should sound better than my 1st idea but look like right side got less instruments for now so i need check what i can put on right side for have an better balance btw both side.

    Thanks again to all who helped and glad to see it can help some others to ^.^
  • A
    A

    well, i like to position the percussion like that:

    chromatic percussion (all sorts of mallets) on the left side, then cymbals, gongs, triangle, snare, bass drum, timpani

    so it might look like that:

    mallets   gongs/cymbals   snare   bass drum  toms   timpani
  • G
    G

    Heya aural,

    Thanks again for share with all your infots on position. I am going to try a setup and come back with a test for you guys can say if it working or not. 

    Gilles
  • S
    S

    I saw a concert this week with the 2nd violins on the right. Drove me nuts. I like V1-V2-VA-VC-CB left to right. 
  • A
    A

    it depends on the era the piece was created in.

    mozart, for example, should be played with the german seating (VL2 on the right, VLC next to VL1)... the music was written for this seating and it wouldnĀ“t make any sense to play it utilizing another seating... it looks weird, because nowadays you most of the time see the american seating... but unfortunately that seating is also used in pieces where it is not appropriate (i.e. stylistically or because of the era and therefore ignoring the composerĀ“s intention).

    there is music that sounds better with the american seating and there is music that sounds better with the german seating. the music is the important thing, not the seating of the musicians... the former determins the latter.
  • G
    G

    Heya all,

    So i am back with my setup :X i panned most instruments i using and also made 5 diferents Depth. I still have some weird stuff i need to figure out like the timpani when not adding the convulation reverb is panned left/midle and when adding it, its more right/midle. Also the cymbal having a weird sound sometimes so i will check why. the setup is :

    TubularBell  Triangle/castanet  Cymbals/gongs  Timpani    BassDrum  Tambourin/Snare

                        Xylophone      Vibraphone     Glockenspiel                                            Trombones   Tuba

                             French Honrs     Clarinets    BassClarinet    Bassoons  Contra Bassoon  Trumpets

           Celesta/piano/Harp                     Piccolo       Flutes       Oboes     English Horn 

                                                 Violins2                                                          Violas

                           Violins                                                                                                     Cellos/basses

    Here an exemple using that setup. Its the imperial march i using it for can compare easier. Its far to be good but still working on diferents things. http://gilles.costard.free.fr/Musique/ImperialTestSetup.mp3

    I will try improve more this week ^.^
  • A
    A

    hi gilles.

    sounds good so far. the only thing i would change in the setup are the trumpets. to my taste they are a little too far on the right. i would seat them left of the trombones right behind the bassoons

    cheers

    s.
  • G
    G

    Heya aural,

    Thanks for have take the time to check ^.^ I guess its going to be a taste war because i don't like much when trumpets are to close to the midle :X but maybe i have to much pan them to right i still working on improving it so might be back later with new stuff :P

    Thanks again ^.^
  • S
    S

    OP, you might want to check out this site with actual photos of scoring sessions in Hollywood since you were mostly interested in scoring. It shows most of them in the "American" layout with Cellos on the right and violins on the left. 

    http://www.scoringsessions.com
  • G
    G

    Heya,

    Thanks for the link its really interesting! And for what i have see its most like i though so i will keep how i did for now and will see depending on the composition if need to move any instruments.

    Gilles
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on