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Strings attack
Last post Sun, Apr 18 2010 by Beat Kaufmann, 20 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2010 01:27
by Marlowe43
Joined on Wed, Sep 09 2009, Posts 10
First of all hi everyone and thanks for all those really useful threads about Vienna.

I'm having a hard time setting strings in general, solo and ensemble, without falling into a slightly artificial sound. I read this could be due to a fast attack, I tried to tweak attack values but I found no solution.

Is there a 'standard' way to set up attack and other values? Am I missing something?

Thanks.
Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2010 09:43
by aural
Joined on Sun, Nov 02 2008, Berlin, Posts 170

hi marlowe.

the attack of the patches is actually fine. you would have to tweak them usually only under very specific circumstances.unnatural sound can be due to many factors... if you listen to a passage without EQ and especially reverb, it sounds very artificial sometimes.

back in the 80s a company in japan had an orchestra record pieces in a completely dry room. that room was sonically dead. no reflections whatsoever. it sounded like a bad synth... just horrible. the vienna samples are not recorded that dry, but still the silent stage has the effect that it sounds a little unnatural without the addition of reverb.

what patches are you using and how would you like them to sound? could you maybe post an example?

cheers

s.

MacBook Pro 2GHz, i7 | OSX 10.6.8 | 8 GB RAM | Cubase 6.0.4 | Chamber Strings I+II Full | VSL Special Edition Bundle Standard | DL-Products: Flute, Oboe, Clarinet in Bb, Bassoon, Trumpet in C, Horn, Trombone | Vienna Suite
Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2010 17:39
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 449

Recording/Sampling strings in a dead or very dry space IMHO is a big mistake !

I have mentioned this several times, and stick to my opinion, VSL needs to offer a 'New line of strings' , that are NOT recorded in a silent/dry space, but rather a more lively, and warm space that allows for the beautiful, and warm characteristics of strings to be captured during the recording/sampling sessions.   

I would love to see VSL acknowledge that this is the best way to greatly improve their string sounds.  Applying EQ, or the best convolution reverbs are not the optimal solution to obtain great sounding strings, but they surely do help improve their current string sounds.

Posted on Wed, Mar 17 2010 20:05
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582
muziksculp wrote:

Recording/Sampling strings in a dead or very dry space IMHO is a big mistake !

I have mentioned this several times, and stick to my opinion, VSL needs to offer a 'New line of strings' , that are NOT recorded in a silent/dry space, but rather a more lively, and warm space that allows for the beautiful, and warm characteristics of strings to be captured during the recording/sampling sessions.   

I would love to see VSL acknowledge that this is the best way to greatly improve their string sounds.  Applying EQ, or the best convolution reverbs are not the optimal solution to obtain great sounding strings, but they surely do help improve their current string sounds.

 

Well, to keep the moderator from shutting down yet another potentially volatile thread, I'll keep this light hearted and just say we have a gentleman's disagreement on this.  For me, I like options. I like the fact that, with VSL, I can create my own sonic environments.  Speaking from a marketing point of view why would McDonald's make a flame broiled burger when Burger King already does that?  In other words, why would VSL allocate time and resources to create a string sound that Eastwest already has? 

Getting back to the OP's original question.  Have you tried adjusting the release fader?  I usually keep the release fadeer at around 65 as it really helps with the legato lines.

I hope this helps.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Mar 18 2010 19:32
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8105

muziksculp wrote:
Recording/Sampling strings in a dead or very dry space IMHO is a big mistake !

I have mentioned this several times, and stick to my opinion [...]

I seem to remember one or two discussions on this topic, yes. Devil

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Mar 19 2010 10:21
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Dietz wrote:

muziksculp wrote:
Recording/Sampling strings in a dead or very dry space IMHO is a big mistake !

I have mentioned this several times, and stick to my opinion [...]

I seem to remember one or two discussions on this topic, yes. Devil

Kind regards,

 

In any case, all methods of sample recording have drawbacks. For me the most important thing is that I need samples with flexibility of articulation and of sound. I have yet to find any other string library that gets close to my needs. Maybe when one exists there will be proof that VSL is wrong to use the Silent Stage. Until then it is all supposition.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Mar 20 2010 18:58
by Marlowe43
Joined on Wed, Sep 09 2009, Posts 10
Thank you all guys for replying, thanks jasensmith for bringing up that release fader tip. I'll try that and I'll let you know.

here's an example of my 'problem'. I purchased VSL Standard Edition last october and this rather simple piece was my first attempt at composition using VSL libraries. On this piece some strings, as I mentioned on my first post, sound a little 'artificial'. I'm sure it's my fault and not VSL's, because I listened to some great stuff here and some of you guys managed to create a true strings dynamic.



http://www.soundclick.com/bands...D=1006298&songID=8652287
Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2010 13:53
by Glyn
Joined on Fri, Oct 24 2008, Posts 3
Hi Marlowe.

I gather you are talking about the "Midnight Tea" piece. It does'nt sound like you're doing too much wrong to me.
You also have'nt said what software you're using. The advice about the attack fader is sound. Just remember that you raise the slider to soften the attack. The main things you need to make VSL strings sound convincing, are a good EQ and the best quality reverb you can afford.
The VSL strings can be somewhat bright, so I usually bring the top end down and the bottom end up a little.
I don't Know what reverb you are using but it seems to give a fairly convincing hall sound. You may want to play around with the decay and release settings on that if it has them.

The strings will sound synthetic without a little "doctoring", but for me, that is their strength. You would suffer all sorts of problems and limitations if they wer'nt dry.

All the best

Glyn Rouse
Posted on Wed, Mar 24 2010 23:55
by Marlowe43
Joined on Wed, Sep 09 2009, Posts 10
Hey Glyn, thanks for the EQ advice. EQ on strings is really tricky to me, expecially when I'm handling different string sets (violins, violas, cellos and so on) at the same time. By the way, I'm using Logic 9 and all reverbs, EQ on that small piece are Logic stuff.
Posted on Fri, Mar 26 2010 09:37
by Pablo
Joined on Wed, Oct 28 2009, Posts 17
For me this dry space of VSL is a big advantage. Nor many others strings libraries on the market, it allows you to create your own evironment on the base of the best music sound. It takes time, it needs attention, but who said the composing is easy task :-). That way, our "VSL soundtracks" sound a bit different.
I understand that recording ex. the violin in dry space is not the "real" environment for any acoustic instrument, but using samples is always the manner of compromise. Let's give aour faith to VSL engineers.
Posted on Wed, Mar 31 2010 15:04
by Glyn
Joined on Fri, Oct 24 2008, Posts 3
Hi Marlowe

I'm afraid that I can't really suggest any seperate EQ or reverb mods, as I'm on a windows setup. Unfortunately, there's no other advice I can offer, other than spending a little time getting to know each sound set individually. With samples you have to be a little bit of each musician as well as composer. The benifits from any care and hard work, are though, greatly
rewarded.
I do remember one of the tutorial videos on the VSL site for logic. It dealt with the send and returns on the inbuilt reverb.
I use a similar method in cubase with a great little reverb on default setting. The send and returns really allow seperate control over each instrument.

Keep up the good work.

Posted on Wed, Mar 31 2010 15:16
by Glyn
Joined on Fri, Oct 24 2008, Posts 3
Hi Pablo

I'm sorry, did I sound crittical of our wonderful samples. On the contrary, it is great to have the use of the best samples in the world. I have had the special edition for just over a year now, and still have much to learn. But I am pretty comfortable with my setup, untill I can afford the special edition plus.

All the best

Glyn

Posted on Fri, Apr 02 2010 16:28
by rverne10
Joined on Tue, May 26 2009, Michigan, USA, Posts 135

I tried to tweak attack values but I found no solution.

Check out Beat Kaufman's web site for a thorough approach to this issue

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/index.php

Basically if the legato is too 'mushy', push up the attack by putting a staccto or marcato attack instrument  in the cell right under it in your Vienna Instrument player. Or, alternatively, if you only need some attacks to be a bit crunchier, set up a second instrument with marcato articulations that can chime in on the beginning of a legato phrase (or where ever you need it) and that will most likely give you more control over the whole situation.

I've played in instrumental groups many times and this issue comes up all the timeSurprise ! Music Directors are contantly dwelling on articulation issues; moving over to the virtual world does not cause us to  leave this matter behind.

Cubase 12, Windows 10 Installed on ‎4/‎11/‎2022
OS build 19044.1645, VE Pro (build 7.1.1329) Vienna Instruments Pro 2.0 (v 2.6.99) Universal Audio Apollo Twin, M-Audio Oxygen 88 keyboard controller, USB connection, NVIDA GeForce GTX 1600 Ti Display adapter, Intel i7-8700K CPU @3.70 GHz, 32 GB RAM Total Physical Memory
Posted on Wed, Apr 14 2010 11:47
by Vasa
Joined on Fri, Feb 19 2010, Posts 20
Dear Collegues ( composer and/or )
Vienna sounds great but the initial issue ( also the name of thread ) is String attack has not connection with EQ.

If you play an Ascending A major scale in lower Orchestral Violin in 108 Metronome tempo and you play notes as 8ths you will hear in Dynimincs like Piano(P) or Pianissimo (PP) a very terrible effect with help to understand when an arragiament has been don with or without real strings.

The bad effect is a "waving" attack and release and if you play that as I mentioned you can understand what I mean.
All libraries have same problem ( Garritanm EWQL, Misroslv and also Vienna wich is littel bit better for ather things )
In higer Dyìnimics this wave effect is reduced but still there, of
course with reverb and EQ you can hide it but only creating an un-real strings effect which is not purpouse of Vienna.
EWQL Ork has thousand of presets and maybe somewhere ypu can fins the right sound for you right strings passage but it takes too long time and energy.

The great advantage of Vienna is the Matrix where you can have or build exactly all string passage you need
but Until now the String attack of Saustain effect is still a problem

any solution?

Bye bye
Lausanne / Switzerland
Posted on Fri, Apr 16 2010 00:46
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1781

Hi Vasa

Here you could find some solutions:

- Video http://vsl.co.at/videoplayer_mp4.asp?ID=193

- Mentioned above: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks2/index.php#0439199ae0080e261

  create several sustains with several attacks this way...

- If you are using Ensembles you also can improve weak sustains by adding another library.

  So try to...

  •      combine the appassionatas with the solostrings (let them play unisono)
  •      combine the orchestra strings with chamberstrings
  •      etc.

And of coarse it is very important to work with the full libraries for full expectations

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Apr 16 2010 01:01
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1781

Hi once more

This piece, Handels WaterMusic Hornpipe No8, uses sustains combined with sfz samples. Cool

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Apr 16 2010 18:52
by Vasa
Joined on Fri, Feb 19 2010, Posts 20
Dear Mr. Kaufmann,
thank ypu spo much for your answer and your very helpfull advises.
I am agree with you about full libraries, but
my first experiense in ORK libs was with Garritan ( awfull )
I bought it just to see that is not good
Then I tride Mirosalv, good attack with ugly samples
Then EWQL GOLD, the "caos" of sampling,
i spent more time to find thei right attack and bowing then writing music.

So I hear about Vienna and I listened to all the demo , even if I learnt to never trust the demos.

I think that the attack that I was speaking about is one of the most Basic strings -attack that normally composer work with
and I supposed that it should be in the Special Edition
So now I got advises to buy new libraries without guaranties that this
string-attack has been produced or sampled.
I will watch you video oping to find confort
Until then, thank you so much

Vasa
Lausanne / Switzerland
Posted on Fri, Apr 16 2010 23:38
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1781

Hello again, Vasa

On the one hand it seems that you've spent a lot of money until now - for finding the "right strings library".

On the other hand I don't know what your aim is.

Are you a composer who wants to listen to its compositions or are you a musician who wants to play the orchestra at home as close as possible to the sound of a real orchestra?

If you are a "true-musician" you never will be happy with samples because there is no "sad legato", no "shiny legato" there is a legato with vibrato and one without. Maybe there is a Miroslav-legato, an EWQL-legato or also a VSL-legato - but not the sad one which you are looking for. 

If you are a "true-musician" you never will be happy with samples because there is no diminuendo of 2,32 seconds. You will only find one of 2s, 3s or 4s or maybe one of 2,5 with the Miroslav strings.

If you are a "true-musician" you never...

Putting together 1: Producing music with samples also means "constantly making compromises. This is not really a happy situation for a true musician.

Knowing this, you only have the possibility to find a library which can come as close as possible to original situation.

The  VSL libraries have...

A) a large pool of different articulations which you can find with all instruments (full - Libraries)

B) the wonderful legato libraries

C) the libraries are more or less dry recorded (so you can put the ensembles into nearly all wished concert rooms)

While A) and B) are an advantage, C) could also be a disadvantage because it needs a bit of knowledge to get good results here - beside a good reverb-system of course.

Further, as you've recognized: There are many of such Strings Libraries on the market. Most of them are showed with nice demos containing nice effects.

But when it comes to play a classical mock-up - there is silence.

I invite you to my homepage where you can listen to dozens of pieces - all made with VSL - from small ensembles to large orchestras - played in small rooms or large halls.

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/demos/index.html

Even if you say: "These are demos!".

Yes, but I made them myself. I know that there are no tricks, no swindle - poor VSL. And there are many classical mock-ups as well (E-music).

I don't say they are all perfect - but I've not the time to fiddle around another 100% for getting 1% more quality.

Putting together 2: With VSL you can come as close as possible to results which are as good as the can be with samples today.

Putting together 1+2

It is up to you to accept the "borders" which you will get with sample-orchestras or not.

If you are looking for the true orchestra sound you will get ill with samples - more and more - sooner or later.

I know musicians who are taken ill when they hear the words "computer and music" within one sentence.

A bit more than 10 years ago I dreamed to have my own orchestra.

Today the dream has become true:

I got a never tired orchestra which is available for 24hours, which can play as fast as I want, which plays in every key, which has a pure sound.

My orchestra got a bit a limited number of articulations but this is much more better than the infinite articulations of an amateur-orchestra...Wink

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sat, Apr 17 2010 10:52
by Vasa
Joined on Fri, Feb 19 2010, Posts 20

Dear Mr Kaufmann,

thank you very much for your advise,

I knew already the your website and of course I agrre with you about "full Librtaries" for ful "expetactions"

but I also think that think kind of Strings ( with standar attack ) would be normal to find in initial libraries.

For the moment I have only V SE and I confirm that is the best ORK LIBS on the market now

at least for orkestra writine ( not for film scoring ) but,

Becasue this doubt about how is organized the product I do not know if going ahead to purchase more Libs

Of course as Marketing Plans , Vienna team did it good, but sometimes if you have some clients "picky" like me

does not work.

In studio normally we used Sample strings  dpuble with real Violin ( because the budget )

this is the reason abpout my research on perfet Ork Lib, like it could be Vienna.

Thank your again for yor attention

Lausanne / Switzerland
Posted on Sun, Apr 18 2010 21:55
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1781
Vasa wrote:
Thank your again for yor attention

It was a pleasure

Greetings from Switzerland to Switzerland!

Beat Kaufmann

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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