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Posted on Sat, Mar 26 2011 20:13
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

First a comment on automating or controlling VI Pro when used by itself.  VI Pro has a handy Tab called "Ctrl Map" in Advanced view that tells you what CC numbers control what functions.  You can also assign CC numbers in Basic View in the small box that appears just above the faders.  One can then set up individual instances of VI Pro within Logic on separate Tracks for each instrument you want to control (violin, horns, etc.) and use Hyper Editor or Hyper Draw to provide CC values to control each of the CC numbers (CC11, for example, affects "breath" and is can be assigned to Expression).  So far so good.

Now we purchase Vienna Ensemble Pro, treating it as a multi-timbral instrument when we set it up on a track of Logic when we establish a New Track with each instance of VE Pro allowing 16 "timbrals", or individual instruments, violin, horns etc.  Using procedures outlined in the VE Pro Reference Manual, we connect to the VE Pro Server and can proceed to add VI Pro instances WITHIN VE Pro.  Each is assigned a channel number for input VE Pro Plug-In 1, for example, and there are what I take to be SUBCHANNELs (omni, 1, 2, etc.) for receipt of incoming midi data.  Sound is output through the busses found at the bottom of each VI Pro channel fader (Master Bus, Net 1/Net 2), etc. These procedures are explained in the VE Pro Manual under "Vienna Ensemble PRO Routing."  Again, so far so good.  This leaves unanswered how to control  or automate VI Pro instances using MIDI CC data once they are set up within VE Pro.

My question is this:  Within Logic how do I specify (a) which CC number, within (b) which VI Pro instrument, within (c) which instance of VE Pro (since one can establish several) is to receive MIDI data and thus control (or automate) a given VI Pro instrument within VE Pro?  I assume one merely selects a given track representing a channel within VE Pro (the tracks that are set up below the initial VE Pro instance) and then opens up Hyper Draw or Hyper Editor to begin entering MIDI CC values for given MIDI CC control numbers (volume, Expression, CC2, and so on).  In such case, we are to assume that the "channels" we are seeing in the Track information for the selected Track, in fact, represent SUBCHANNELS within a Master Channel (which is the main conduit, as it were, for MIDI data travelling from the sequencer to the VE Pro server).  I am also confused as to whether the checkboxes that appear when using Hyper Draw ("Channel" and "Number") need to be checked or not checked (with the appropriate Channel and number being selected), and whether these checkboxes now represent Subchannels WITHIN VE Pro, NOT within Logic itself.

A brief general explanation and a step-by-step how to, similar to that which appears in the VE Pro Reference Manual for initial set up of VE Pro within Logic, would be greatly appreciated.

It would be helpful, if the VE Pro Reference Manual were amended to include information on how to set up MIDI control of VI Pro Instruments within VE Pro.  It would also be helpful to indicate how to automate faders and other elements of VE Pro itself (I believe there is a thread on this latter subject).  Finally, a small point, the VE Pro Reference Manual says that channels can be moved, "Move channels in the Channel Pane according to your prferences", Manual p. 14.  However, it does not tell you how to do this.  I have tried click-drag to no avail.

Steve

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Sun, Mar 27 2011 02:36
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615

I think your assumption of midi data in terms of a master and sub-channels isn't helping you. that's just Logic's GUI.

It's pretty simple. you make sure midi gets to the instrument by assigning the data per a midi channel, whether it's notes on/durations etc or controller data. Logic has this uber-flexible paradigm so these windows are separated in the interface, unfortunately. If you want a controller to modify the notes you trigger, you send the controller track and the track with the notes data to the same place, via the channel #; there isn't more to it than that. If one requires a multitimbral instance in VE Pro, such as one might have set up in Kontakt or what-have-you, give the multi an omni assignment and distribute channels in the instruments themselves. This won't apply to VI or VI Pro, which isn't a mulitimbral instrument in this way.

as far as the automation to control channels - eg., volume, pan, sends - in the mixer of VE Pro, this is done from an instrument track, not a midi track. At this time you can't write automation directly to a plugin in VE Pro, only to its mixer, and you have to write it from the sequencer; ie., you can't record mouse moves (or controller manipulation) on the VE Pro side.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Sun, Mar 27 2011 02:42
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615

&, you can move the channels at left, vertically, click and drag into place. but not horizontally in the mixer space.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Mon, Mar 28 2011 16:50
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

Civ 3 -   Thanks for the response and help.  Steve

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Thu, Aug 25 2011 20:37
by studio_26907
Joined on Thu, Mar 29 2007, Posts 5

Hi guys, did the above solve your problem?  I don't quite follow the solution given.

We have VEP on a Mac Pro over the network.  It is running things like Kontakt and Omnisphere.  Per the videos and manual, they are set up as multi's, with their own channel strip in VEP, and their own output.

Then in Logic, we have Vienna multis set up and connected to their various counterparts on the VEP machine.  When selecting Instrument 1 Multi 1 - the volume and pan do not effect the volume and pan of the VEP channel strips.  I've read that they will not be able to control the hosted plugin's parameters, but only the VEP volume, pan, and aux parameters.  That's fine, but it does not do this.

I feel like I've gotten a pretty decent grasp of VEP so far, but this one point is driving me crazy.  A step by step guide on how to automate volume and pan across a network on a multi instrument using VEP would be very helpful.

Other than that, really blown away by the VEP possibilites so far.

Thanks for reading.

Posted on Thu, Aug 25 2011 21:09
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615

MIDI volume and pan is not what you want. It doesn't apply here. It doesn't work, which you have noticed. It doesn't work that way period. You want to control the AU channel. Those control the midi channel which happens before the AU/instrument channel.

"I've read that they will [control] only the VEP volume, pan, and aux parameters."

No, you read that automation of the AU/instrument channel will do that. MIDI volume and pan will determine the amount of volume and the kind of pan the VI instrument receives, but these do not control the instrument's channels that are the output of that instrument.

The information you need is in the Logic manual. This applies to every instrument plugin. This isn't a VE Pro problem.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Thu, Aug 25 2011 21:20
by studio_26907
Joined on Thu, Mar 29 2007, Posts 5

Hmm...note velocity and mod wheel being midi information, I'm not quite understanding why volume and pan are not transmitted via LAN to VEPro and controlling the VEPro channel strip's volume and pan.

Interestingly, volume of Multi Instrument 1, Channel 1 controls the Master Fader of the corresponding VEPro instance.  So I'm assuming with some Environment work in Logic, one can use transformers to send the correct volume and pan information to VEPro.  Is that what you're saying?  Pardon my ignorance, but your post was a bit vague.

While it's "not a VE Pro problem", I do believe this could have been implemented better, and hope that automation is handled differently in the future.

Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 06:44
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615

it is transmitted, TO THE INSTRUMENT.

This is not an implementation problem. It won't be implemented any differently by any vendor. There is nothing to implement. Midi doesn't  control an instrument track; CC7 volume is not what controls the instrument channel faders in a mixer, either in Logic, in Cubase, or in VE PRO. It controls midi in an instrument; THEN the instrument outputs audio (It can be seen in the project as the midi track's volume and in the mixer reflecting that, but that isn't the instrument track, which is the audio track that instrument produces). This is two different things. You have control over volume of both; CC7 volume to eg., VI and instrument track automation to VE Pro channels. These are not the same target. Consult the Logic manual to obtain an understanding of the difference if this isn't clear. This is how every virtual instrument works in a software sequencer. That VE Pro has a mixer does not make VI a different kind of instrument than say Kontakt.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 09:56
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615
studio_26907 wrote:

Interestingly, volume of Multi Instrument 1, Channel 1 controls the Master Fader of the corresponding VEPro instance.  So I'm assuming with some Environment work in Logic, one can use transformers to send the correct volume and pan information to VEPro.  Is that what you're saying?  Pardon my ignorance, but your post was a bit vague.

No.

'Multi instrument 1' has VE Pro as a target. The midi track has VI, an instrument hosted in VE Pro, as a target. VI is an instrument hosted by VE Pro, it's not VE Pro itself.  Logic will send the (multi) instrument information to VE Pro as per channel volume and pan, and send levels;  It will send midi to instruments. the instruments, hosted in VE Pro, are not the same thing as multi instrument tracks in Logic, or instrument tracks in the mixer. The latter are results of what happens from the instruments; essentially audio tracks.

I don't use Logic for multitimbral instruments. I can only tell you about the basic principles. 'Multi 1 Ch 1' apparently corresponds with the first, ie., furthest to the left, channel in VE Pro. If you want to to control the first instrument channel that you loaded, next to that on the right, I guess it's going to be Ch 2 then. Etc. These are not midi channels. Midi channels correspond with midi tracks' assignments.

SO. You have:

1) midi tracks, with midi instructions sent to an instrument in VE Pro. These use midi channels; in Logic you have port 1, chs 1-16. These are assignments inside of a channel strip in VE Pro. Two things are going on here in the same channel strip.

2) multi channels with instructions sent to channels in VE Pro. >Midi tracks/channels and >mixer channels in VE Pro are two different entities. The same word 'channel' has two different ramifications, which is confusing you.

Then, 3), you have instrument tracks which are audio that VE Pro returns to Logic. You have three ways to control volume here that are done separately.

This is known to people accustomed to working with virtual instruments. You are asking VSL to teach you it in their material. Don't expect it, or hope that implementation of this to be anything other than it is.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 13:17
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

I don't know whether I am agreeing with civ3, but there are at least TWO ways to set up VE Pro in Logic 9.  The first is as a "software instrument" set to multi-timbral mode when you set it up.  You then set each instrument WITHIN VE Pro to a different channel and control it as though it were DIRECTLY instanced in a Logic Track.

Plan B, the SECOND way, is more involved and is what I have been using lately.  The procedure is explained in a PDF you will find under "Needful Things" in the VSL website -- in the "User Area" tab of the VSL website.  The PDF is called "Orchestral Templates".  It involves ONE "software instrument" for VE Pro and several "external instrument" tracks underneath, one for each instrument in VE Pro.  There is also a VIDEO (hurrah!) explaining the same set up in Logic, only using Kontakt as a host for instruments.   http colon forward slash forward slash vimeo dot com forward slash 4206765.  In this video think of Kontakt as a substitute for VE Pro. 

If that URL doesn't work for you Google:  Vimeo, "Multi-Timbral instance of Kontakt in Logic" and you should find it. Watch this video and read the Needful Things document, and you will get the idea.  Remember that you have to SAVE the Logic Environment set up as a template, or you have to go through the whole procedure each time you start a new composition.

Kontakt works a little differently from VE Pro as a host for instruments in Kontakt libraries.  If you set up Kontakt WITHIN VE Pro, in Kontakt 4.2.3, you set up ONE instance of Kontakt, setting its CHANNEL to OMNI, and then add instruments from your Kontakt libraries as SEPARATE channels -- Kontakt automatically will number the channels serially for you.  So you have ALL your instruments in just ONE instance of Kontakt.  In VEP, using Kontakt as your instrument for Kontakt libraries, you CAN set up separate instances of Kontakt within VE Pro if you wish (and have lots of RAM), but each channel of an instance within VE Pro operates as a FILTER, RESTRICTING that instance to the channel you set in the mixer in VE Pro.  In VE PRO, for VSL libraries, you are establishing SEPARATE instances of VI PRO for EACH CHANNEL.  So at the mamimum you will have 15 instances of VI Pro -- the first channel is reserved for the Master Volume channel.  You CANNOT add 15 instances of Kontakt and then 15 instruments within each particular instance, each with its own channel.

If you need more instruments, add a new set of tracks within Logic, that is, go through the whole procedure a second time. Hope this helps you. 

So, again, your structure under Plan B is:  VE Pro "software instrument" plus 15 "external instrument" tracks for each instrument within VE Pro.  These instruments can be VSL instruments, each within its own instance of VI Pro (or the free version VI), or these instruments can be instruments from Kontakt libraries.  These latter instruments will reside within ONE instance of Kontakt, but each with its own Channel.  You could ask "why bother with VE Pro when Kontakt acts as a host for several instruments all on its own?"  I have no answer.  Perhaps you could simply use the procedure outlined in the vimeo video tutorial.  However, I don't know whether Kontakt can be used in slave PCs with Ethernet cables carrying MIDI and audio data the way VE Pro can -- so that may be a reason to wrap Kontakt within VE Pro.

Just one final word, if you are just getting started in Logic.  There are TWO types of automation:  Track automation and Region based automation.  Track automation, as the name implies, automates controls over an entire track of Regions.  To use Track automation, press "A" in caps, to open an automation lane. 
After you have set up your various instruments using external
instruments in Plan B above, you will be able to control each of those instruments through Track automation.  Track automation uses a special Logic command language, and is not regular MIDI commands.  You can edit it with your mouse in an automation track or in a special Event List window:  "Control-Command-E."  Alternatively, you can use Region based automation and regular MIDI commands (Automation commands are special to Logic), such as CC#1 or CC#7 to control whatever is assigned to those.  As the name implies, changes you make within each Region to not affect other regions.  So, for example, if you change volume in one Region, and subsequent change in volume in another Region, will override that volume change.  Region based automation you control through so-called hyperdraw, or simply by entering the CC commands in the Region editor, letter "E" produces an event list at the right of the Arrange window.  I find this event list the easiest to work with, though cumbersome, because you can see exactly where the CC commands lies in the stream of note.  Since these commands move around with the Regions, you have to watch CC commands that may occur in OTHER Regions, since these Regions are controlled by whatever CC commands they happen to have.  You can also include Program Changes in Region based automation to switch instrument Presents in VI Pro.

While not directly on point, I have found Beat Kaufmann's VSL tutorials helpful in terms of working with VSL libraries, if not with Logic and its arcane control structure.  Some of his sound examples are available on the VSL website.

Steve

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 20:04
by studio_26907
Joined on Thu, Mar 29 2007, Posts 5

Civilization, Why did you write "You are clearly new to this.  RTFM first before believing in your assumptions." and then delete it?  By all means, if you're going to make assumptions, stand by them my friend.  As a user of Logic since it was called Studio Vision, it's cute to have you, high atop your horse, refer me to the manual and "clearly" assume I'm new at this.  And as you later state, you don't use Logic for multis - so I'm not sure you're the right person to comment.

Steve, thank you so much for your thoughtful and descriptive response.  I really appreciate it.  Apparently you forgot to leave out the belittling tone, as that seems to be the order of the day here.

Let me clear this up for anyone in the future that arrives at this page.

One sentence answer, if you're used to using CC7 for mutlis in Logic, be it with Kontakt, Omnisphere or otherwise - switch to using CC11 - expression, when moving over to VEPro via LAN.

Logic has, for a long time, handled CC7 differently depending on what you're doing.  It also sends CC7 differently.  This ends up having strange effects within VEpro.  CC7 of channel one of a true multi (set up in the environment) will control the master fader volume in VEPro.  CC7 of channel 2 of that multi will control the master fader's pan.  This is certainly a Logic issue.

On the subject of multis in Logic, one can use the "Multi-Timbral" selection box when creating a new instrument in Logic.  But those are, in my opinion, a recent add on not worth spit.  Creating worthwhile multis is done in the Environment, patching cables and using transformers for certain parameters (especially with RMX, Omnisphere, Trillian).  Done this way, in the Arrange you have much more control over parameters within the plugin you are using.

For instance, Kontakt, in its "Auto" page, has the ability to read incoming midi data from either "host" or "midi" automation.  When you move a slider or knob on your controller, a "lightening bolt" will show up indicating that continuous controller.  You can then drag and drop that CC on to whatever instrument parameter in Kontakt that you'd like.  It's quite nice.  I'm happy to report that VEPro extends this feature over LAN.  But it DOES require you to switch from using CC7 (which I have done for years) to using CC11.

This was my hangup.  CC7 from Logic will not arrive in Kontakt via VEPro the same way it did when running Kontakt internally in Logic.  But a simple switch to CC11 will do the trick.  Old habits die hard.

Steve, thank you for the response.  Civlization, thanks for the condescention and hypocracy.

Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 22:00
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615

I spent quite a bit of time with the intent of providing you with basic information.  I thought my last bit was a bit much and possibly not right, so I lost it. It is no surprise to me you'd have seen it - which I don't have a problem with. That is an inference drawn, not an assumption. Changing my mind is not tantamount to being the bad actor you seem to want me to be; cf., 'stand by them my friend'? That seems to carry the assumption that I need to be right above all else. No, I took the time to address your questions, and more than once, following up.


You aren't going to get different implementation. CC7 does not (normally; is Logic this exotic?) target the channel strip:

studio_26907 wrote:

Hmm...note velocity and mod wheel being midi information, I'm not quite understanding why volume and pan are not transmitted via LAN to VEPro and controlling the VEPro channel strip's volume and pan. Hmm...note velocity and mod wheel being midi information, I'm not quite understanding why volume and pan are not transmitted via LAN to VEPro and controlling the VEPro channel strip's volume and pan.


Interestingly, volume of Multi Instrument 1, Channel 1 controls the Master Fader of the corresponding VEPro instance.  So I'm assuming with some Environment work in Logic, one can use transformers to send the correct volume and pan information to VEPro.  Is that what you're saying?  Pardon my ignorance, but your post was a bit vague.


While it's "not a VE Pro problem", I do believe this could have been implemented better, and hope that automation is handled differently in the future.



MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Fri, Aug 26 2011 22:32
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1615
Steve_DC wrote:

Kontakt works a little differently from VE Pro as a host for instruments in Kontakt libraries.  If you set up Kontakt WITHIN VE Pro, in Kontakt 4.2.3, you set up ONE instance of Kontakt, setting its CHANNEL to OMNI, and then add instruments from your Kontakt libraries as SEPARATE channels ...

Kontakt, any version, works differently than VI as VI has no capability to be a multitimbral instrument. VE Pro has a different structure than an instrument as it is not an instrument. Cf., Kore 2 which is both and works just like Kontakt: Omni in the multi and distributed to channels in the instruments, in both Kontakt and in Kore 2. Trilian and I guess Omnisphere is a little different: it must have a channel 1 to have channel 2 as a viable target in its multi. I do not often set up Kontakt multis within VE Pro as it is a multi. If what I want happens to be a multi, variations on the same content I will (BTW a Kontakt Multi doesn't have to have more than one instrument or output, it could be for scripting purposes in some vendors' idea of handling that.). In VE Pro, I treat Kontakt exactly like VI Pro most of the time, single instances/one instrument.

If you are receiving midi from a host, you set Kontakt to receive the host's midi. The 'receive as midi' is for standalone use, to receive from hardware controllers directly.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Sun, Aug 28 2011 16:55
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

civ3 --

BTW, I now believe I understand what you said in March (see above)!  At the time, I had not used Kontakt.

S

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
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