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The futur of ''old'' VSL libraries
Last post Sat, Sep 22 2012 by William, 17 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 16:18
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

First of all,  congratulation for the VSL  team for their last product,  the Dimension Strings!  What an amazing release!  This,  coupled with Mir Pro,  VI Pro 2, the outstanding number of articulations available for all your collections...  The quality of these sampled articulations,  the quality of your programming...  Indifferent

Seriously,  you are such an wonderful company!  Passionate,  revolutionnary,  maniac  ( Big Smile )...  I couldn't imagine doing my work without all your tools...

I created this thread to bring up an important point... Like the Boss said : 

With the release of Vienna Dimension Strings, do the other Vienna Symphonic Library string products become redundant?

Our motto, in the 12 years of Vienna Symphonic Library’s history, has always been to develop products that expand the existing product range rather than making former products obsolete. This applies to Vienna Dimension Strings as well. Of course they may be used by themselves, but the timbre of a huge string section, such as our Appassionata Strings with 20 violins, cannot be replaced by 8 violins. On the other hand, adding some or all of the new Vienna Dimension Strings violins to the Chamber StringsOrchestral Strings or Appassionata Strings expands their spectrum, and their possibilities, in a tremendous way. If you look at it that way, Vienna Dimension Strings will provide a huge increase in value for the existing string ensembles.

...  Vienna Dimension is not a product to replace the older libraries,  it's there to complete them,  and push further their possibilities...  I'm starting to understand this...  After all this time...  Big Smile

Even with the huge amount of time that between the Dimension libraries and the Standard (and extended of course) release,  the only thing that can really make them differs in quality (I'm not talking about divisi here,  but the quality of the samples),  and make one appear truly older than the newer,  are the performance articulations.

2 velocity layers versus 4 velocity layers makes a really big difference.  Performance patches are the heart of a virtual instrument and what makes it alive.  

Since the Dimension products are complementary of the Standard product,  is there any possibility that the VSL team updates the performance patches of the old libraries?  

Doing that would improves a lot the anciens library! That would make them 6-7 years younger!  That would make them to the new standard of quality that the Dimension series have reached.  Then this would be the absolute perfect combination of VSL libraries, both in possibilities,  and in quality.

Thank you again for you amazing work!  The olders libraries are so big and full of ressources,  it would be truly amazing if you could upgrade them and put up to date.

Vincent

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 16:28
by A871
Joined on Thu, Feb 04 2010, Posts 67

Great idea!!!! :)

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 16:30
by A871
Joined on Thu, Feb 04 2010, Posts 67

and don't forget to loop them for infinite sustain :) hehe

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2012 20:26
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

 One supporter,  hourra!  Big Smile

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 04:17
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

While waiting for the last of the download, which has speeded up tremendously, I noticed this thread as a popular one - it is wrong though in some basic assumptions.  There are already 4 velocity dynamics on the older libraries, so that update is not needed.   So I don't know what you're referring to. 

But in general, the other libraries have a HUGE amount of articulations, in many velocities.    And what I am now thinking really hard about is, how the Dimension Strings are going to combine with them.  Since I use all of them, this gives me a lot of exciting ideas, because of the fact that a normal thing to do has been to layer solo strings with other libraries for the espressivo complexity they add.  So, thinking along these lines - the Dimension Strings do this also, but tremendously increased in power.   In fact, the possibilities are now becoming about infinite.  This is the great aspect of VSL's samples - and this is not hype, it is fact.  From the beginning, they used the actual musical quality of the instruments as the basis, rather than some computer-modeled reduction of an intrument which has often been the approach of other libraries.  And so, you can still use the very first samples released by VSL in current productions.  I do this all the time in fact.   Because they have great musical quality  which is essentially beyond technology-obsolescence factors.  A Stradivarius is MORE valuable BECAUSE of its "obsolescence."  I believe VSL has used this same approach in relying upon the musical quality of performance and instruments, recorded very pristinely and in detail, from the beginning.

And so the point is -  Dimension Strings  can be used by itself, but also truly expand the older libraries greatly, by combining with them in subtle ways.  My main thrust right now is to first of all determine the natural sound represented by the new library in general, and then to realize how it combines with the other previous libraries, especially Solo and Appassionata which are my favorites (though the others are always needed at various times).  I feel that this approach of VSL - in allowing backward-compatible but new products - is simply essential to music, because music is the ultimate example, in all technology or art - of things of the past forming a basis for things of the future.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 05:53
by A871
Joined on Thu, Feb 04 2010, Posts 67

we were talking about the performance patches :)

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 07:57
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I think it is important to think about what is actually "wrong" with the older libraries. i have a few pet peeves, but to my ears most of what they do has not been surpassed by any other developer.

There are things that need to be addressed in my view; completing the Appsassionata, adding a molto vibrato layer to the Orchestral Strings, adding bow change patches to all of them, addressing Russian underslide portamento. The list can be extensive, but nothing that has already been recorded is redundant. What is needed, IMO, is a re-visiting and some re-editing to create new articulations. The material is already recorded, but unfortunately it is the editing that takes most of the resources. Of course the problem with this is that many people wouldn't want to pay for such an update, but for those of us working in the profession, this should not be an obstacle to asking for these enhancements.

DG

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Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 13:08
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561
A871 wrote:

we were talking about the performance patches :)

 

The legato performance patches have 4 velocity so you have to be more specific.  

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 14:03
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

What are you talking about William?  All the old libraries have 2 velocity layers for the performance patches...

Maybe you are talking about the 4 velocity layers legato sustain patches?

These are not legato patches.  These are faked legato patches with sustain samples.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 15:16
by mmueller
Joined on Mon, Sep 28 2009, Posts 120
Vincent M wrote:

is there any possibility that the VSL team updates the performance patches of the old libraries?  


Are you talking about the old Giga/EXS libraries? I don't think you'll see any update here.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 19:24
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

 I thought you meant by "old" the Orchestral strings, Chamber, Appassionata.   Those do all have 4 velocity perf legato. 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 19:26
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

Vincent M wrote:

Maybe you are talking about the 4 velocity layers legato sustain patches?

These are not legato patches.  These are faked legato patches with sustain samples.

 

There is no faked legato.  The "legato sustain"  patches have a crossfade from the legato to the sustain patch.  The legato itself is exactly the same as the original legato patch - real sampled legato. 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 19:48
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

The patches you're talking about are described like this in the manual : Legato with 4 velocity layers in the sustains

The true legato intervals have been recorded for only two velocity layers.  The patches you're talking have 4 velocity layers in the sustains,  but not in the legato.  It can't be more clear.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 20:47
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

Oh, you are talking about the legato transitions, not the patch?   But anyway it is not "fake."  Also, the difference is absolutely undetectable.  It sounds right because the legato transition is so fast.  Most of what you hear that identifies the dynamic is the sustain. 

But why am I responding to this?  Because I am not at the computer with Dimension Strings until later today, that's why.  Crying

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 22:17
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

Hey William!

I tought that there were no legato transition used in these patches.  I tought they were just mono sustains patches like the ones in the short-long articulations called ''auto''. Hmm

How does it work?  Is it 2 legato performance velocity layers navigating inside 4 velocity sustain patches?  So between each note there is still a true recorded legato interval?  Do I understand correctly?  

If yes,  those are really nice patches.  Surprise

BUT,  I don't see them for chamber strings.  Only for Appassionata and Orchestral Strings.  

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 22:28
by Vincent M
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, Posts 205

An other really interessting question would be : Could they do the same thing with the other instruments?  Create legato-sustain 4 velocity layers for the trumpets,  the french horns,  ect?

Big Smile

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2012 22:38
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5561

Well they all have authentic legato and you're right they are really great patches.  They are also on the Chamber.  What you were noting about the legato transition itself being only two velocity as opposed to the sustain  which are four - I didn't think that was the case, but I am not sure about the content of all the different editions. I am using the Symphonic Cube extended edition so maybe the other editions are different.  But at any rate the legato between the attack note and target note sounds perfectly smooth and the same dynamic as the four-velocity target notes.  On Appassionata there are very nice built-in a/b normal/portamento. 

I am now simply agonizing away from my studio, waiting for the moment when at last  the Dimension Strings are sounding within my cloistered darkened room lit only by the glow of the Vienna Ensemble/MIR interface, where I will soon disappear, perhaps never to be heard from again as I vanish within the massive sample database...

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