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Paganini - Capriccio no.1
Last post Thu, Mar 27 2014 by Beat Kaufmann, 16 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Mar 14 2014 19:52
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

My first experiment with the recent purchased Solo Strings Bundle.

MIDI downloaded from Internet. Altered by Overture notation.

Played and output from Overture. Reverb the built-in reverb of VI-pro.

https://app.box.com/s/ezldzyg3sfkg0a7anxng

Greetings,

Raymond

Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2014 11:16
by greystorm
Joined on Fri, Dec 10 2010, Zofingen (AG), Schweiz, Posts 114
hey Rymond...

Great Job!

Grey
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2014 20:11
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

Thank you, Grey.

I went on experimenting, but still  I am not quite satisfied about the result. It is supposed to be Sautillé - playing as I can derive from the Youtube video of Alexander Markov. Maybe after a good night sleep.... It is a remarkable good set of strings!!! Thanks to the VSL-guys.

Greetings,

Raymond

Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2014 20:50
by greystorm
Joined on Fri, Dec 10 2010, Zofingen (AG), Schweiz, Posts 114
so you are really modest ;-)... i am not a violin Player.. but maybe Mr. Beat Kaufmann can help you.

www.beat-kaufmann.com

and yes... not only the strings are remarcable...

grey
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2014 21:29
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

Who can beat kaufmann? Nobody. But he has no tutorial on this..... went thru his website.

Raymond

Posted on Sun, Mar 16 2014 16:27
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Raymond,

Which patch(-es) did you use? What specific part of the result does bother you? The possible lack of sautillé effect, the too perfect tuning? The too homogenous attack maybe?

Sorry for all those questions, just curious to find out.....

PS Dutch btw?

Posted on Sun, Mar 16 2014 22:42
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
Raymond Robijns wrote:

Who can beat kaufmann? Nobody. But he has no tutorial on this..... went thru his website.

Hi Raymond

There is of course no tutorial about Paganini.

Nevertheless, maybe I could give you some help for an even better Paganini. At any rate I'm using VSL-Samples since 2002 and I'm playing the violin my self.

But it depends on you. I don't want to force my company on you and your playing experiments.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Mar 17 2014 12:09
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

Erik and Beat,

I'll come back on this subject later this week..... other things are calling (my wife wants me to paint the kitchen Crying

This morning I had another look at this piece. Indeed, some things have to change.

Write to you later,

Raymond

Posted on Tue, Mar 18 2014 01:21
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
Raymond Robijns wrote:
...I am not quite satisfied about the result. It is supposed to be Sautillé - playing as I can derive from the Youtube video of Alexander Markov...

Hello Raymond

The VSL-Violin has the articulations which it comes with and not more so don't be sad when we don't get Sautillé.

Playing music with samples is "making compromises from the beginning till the end".

Important isn't the name of all the articulations but how they sound. Further: All the articulations sound different with their different levels.

Try out "détachée long" of the solo violin. Level 4 (109-127) sounds different compared to level 3 (90-108)...

So we have a lot of possibilities even if the offer is limited. Important is that you know the sound of the articulations of your libraries.

This means that you perhaps don't choose "sfz" (...because of the score) but you take the "harsh"-articulation because it does the better job in this certain case.

So our job is to combine all the available sounds to a "close-to-the-reality-result" by choosing the best possible sound in every moment - removed from their names and indications.

BTW: I just played the first barrs of Paganini's Capriccio No1 as well.

So the "reference" is ready... I'm on "standby" till you will be back, Raymond Wink

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 15:16
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Hello Raymond

It seems that you've no more time to improve your paganini.

Nevertheless, I'm going to share my approach with you and others here.

I've played the first bars of the Paganini for showing that a lot of different treatments can lead to completely other results.

I've prepared two versions:

Version A)

More or less one articulation, more or less a treatment how we are used to from midi-music.

Finally mixed by MIRx with the preset "Solo Violin Center"

Version B)

A lot of variations with the tempo, the articulations, the dynamics, the velocities... I tried to be an interpreter of the Paganini...

Finally mixed with common effects (EQ, a bit Compressor and Reverb for getting a close soloist).

Comment

OK, I've overdone both examples a bit for pointing out the difference. But these example show clearly 1.) how different the same library can sound, and 2.) how musically we can play VSL-samples by varying all the parameters which a real musician usually does without thinking - even if it means "a lot of work" of course.

For more info and images of the tempo/ piano-roll-editor vist also

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-4/index.php (No34.)

Have fun

Beat

PS. I believe that nobody miss "Sautillé" any more after listening to Version B) - even if it would bi nice to be owner of Sautillé as well.

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 16:02
by greystorm
Joined on Fri, Dec 10 2010, Zofingen (AG), Schweiz, Posts 114
ha, ha... better than menuhin... i like Version B! Sounds natural for me..
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 16:59
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

Good day folks,

sorry for the late reply or follow-up. While doing the painting I encountered some problems with the walls, needing immediate repair. It all took longer than anticipated. Between all white spots I found time to revisit the piece. Together with a Belgium friend and with the examples on Youtube  (Alexander Markov) I managed getting a decent recording. I also got more understanding using the patches, combination of patches, the crossfade function and more.

Mr. Kaufmann, many thanks for your versions and your offer helping me. For me it works better - it sticks better in my mind - when I discover things myself. The Belgian friend is very patient!!! He teaches me listening with "other ears'' to things, very useful. So, making a longer story a bit shorter - and what is better than showing - the newly rendered Capriccio no 1 and for the sake of experiment also Capriccio no. 2, which has rather different articulations.

Capriccio no. 1

Capriccio no. 2

With regards,

Raymond

Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 20:24
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Congratulation: Your Paganini sounds much better than the first version.Beside a lot of things you probably also learned that "making music" with samples can take a lot of time. Wink

Unfortunately a lot of musicians take this Paganini to show how fast they can play. That's the reason why also musicians often play the Capriccio just as a computer.

Raymond Robijns wrote:
...For me it works better - it sticks better in my mind - when I discover things myself.

No problem Raymond, you can discover things as fast as you want. I also don't say that one should music play this or that way.

I only wanted to show, that one should vary musical aspects as often as possible in connection with samples and this for fighting against the sterility of samples.

Further: My way is more to give an example as a possible solution than only theoretical advices.

Collecting those examples can be helpfull then for other sample users as well.

So the collection has grown up with your example (34) even more.

Go on your way my dear

I wish you a lot of success

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 20:30
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763
greystorm wrote:
ha, ha... better than menuhin... i like Version B! Sounds natural for me..

Hallo, grauer Sturm

Thanks for your Menuhin-feedback Cool

All the best to Zofige

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Mar 26 2014 23:02
by Raymond Robijns
Joined on Tue, Feb 26 2013, The Hague, Posts 130

Hello Beat,

you are right about the speed. I also listened to a youtube of Izthak Perlman. Faster than Markov and far from beautiful. There are a lot of different recordings and one is better than the other (at least for my ears). I am sure that Paganini wanted this first piece as fast as possible (I phoned him about this Smile ). Right now I am going to some other pieces. Just finished copying the Sonata for violin and harpsichord BWV 1022 for playing in Overture Notation. Thus slower phrases where legato, slurs and portamento have a major role. Let's see how this goes.

Thank you for your kind words. I should have bought that Solo Bundle much earlier, but as always... the budget. In cooperation with my son, I could buy this for my 70th birthday last february. Next is the Orchestral strings Bundle......

Raymond

Posted on Thu, Mar 27 2014 01:47
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1763

Dear Raymond

Thanks for your kind words as well. About the Orchestra Bundle: This is a nice addition to your solo violins!

And the best: You will be able to combine the orchestra library with the solo violins.

During the days before we got the chamberstrings I used the solo strings togehter with the orchestra library for getting a more "chamber-orchestra-sound".

Playing the solo strings and the orchestra strings unison leads to a sort of chamberstrings. It depends on the mixing balance between the Quintett an the Orchestra

One of my first demos for VSL with this technique was Mangiagalli's Bach-E-Partita treatment... (it was in 2003 I believe)

It will be great and you will have a lot of fun with the orchestra library, I'm sure.

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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