W.A. Mozart - Concerto for flute & Orchestra - K313 - Rondeaux

[MWE]

Hi,

Here is my version of the flute concerto k. 313 third movement in modern tempo.

Please enjoy this little minuetto.

Comments as always welcome. In this case I would be particularly interested in observations on the mix in order to improve its transparency.

Thanks,

Martijn

[Jos Wylin]

Hi Martijn,

What a fantastic idea to resample that Mozart flute concerto. I like the sound of the solo flute and at times of the orchestra. There is however one thing that bothers me. The dynamic contrasts are huge and the flute is often too loud. I may be mistaken, but have you tried to bring relief in your orchestra by using dynamic levels (volume/expression)? Sometimes, the orchestra sits back a lot, sometimes it comes forward. I'm not a specialist at all, but that is what I hear in my monitors.

For the rest, a very nice version with an elegant and singing flute, well articulated and crisp.

Congrats!

Max

[MWE]

Thanks Max.

The goal of this mix was to get a detailed, crisp and upfront sound. I normally place the orchestra more at distance, something that in my ears sounds closer to the classical material I reference, but by which I often loose too much detail.

Anyway I tend to use lots of cc's for phrasing, balancing and dynamic contrast. In this case however, I didn't. The dynamics are coming from note velocity alone and follow the score's dynamic markings. So do you think the flute should be better balanced with the orchestra alone or do you also consider the contrast between piano, forte, solo and tutti passages plain too large?

Thanks,

 Martijn

[Jos Wylin]

Hi Martijn,

These things are on the one hand a matter of taste and on the other a matter of realism. It's always dangerous to rely on the beatiful technical possibilities of digital mixing and balancing. A relatively 'weak' instrument can play incredible out of the overall sound of the orchestra by only mixing. One can like that or not, but in reality, the place of the soloist and the visibility put the sound forward (what you see best, you hear best), but the main volume of the instrument doesn't actually change. There are tables with the relative volumes of all instruments, but that's of course nothing but theory. Your ears are the best guide in this. Trust your ears and bring the soloist enough to the foreground. That's not a matter of volume, but a matter of more direct hearing (early reflections, wet reverb, more high frequencies...) But again, I'm not a specialist in these matters.

Max

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hi Martijn

I believe the trick is here to bring the solo flute in front of the orchestra - as max mentioned as well above.

I don't know how you mixed the orchestra. If you used MIR then try to route the signal of the flute not through MIR.

Just use VSLs HyperReverb for example within the flute channel. Choose a concert hall preset and switch off the ERs (early reflections) so that you only get some "tail" but no depth.

This will work with other algo-reverbs as well of course.

For simulating a front sound you also could insert an exiter into the flute channel.

Enhance the highest (shiny) frequences a bit (which is the case with closer instruments). Max mentioned this  as well.

then balance the volume between the orchestra and the flute so that the flute always sounds "over" the accompaniment.

This could be a job for the "trackoutomation" within your DAW.

Even if you didn't use MIR then route the Flute through a separate "depth-system" (reverb).

All the best

Beat

[MWE]

Hi Max and Beat,

Thanks for you advice. This work was mixed with mir and the relative balance is (as said earlier mainly) established by velocity (and some filtering). Given the quality arrangement plus the placement in mir I would expect this to be sufficient to get towards the sound I prefer. Apparantly there is lot to be gained by mixing.

I'll give your approaches/techniques a try to see whether I can bring more transparancy in my mixes. 

For the exiter: Is this something applied to violins as well? E.g. the distance between shrill and dull sounding violins is in my ears very small and I tend to reduce the master filter quite a bit to get a more pleasant timbre. Is an exiter suitable to bring in some exposure without affecting the timbre in a major way?  

Thanks,

Martijn

[Beat Kaufmann]

@MWE said:

For the exiter: Is this something applied to violins as well? E.g. the distance between shrill and dull sounding violins is in my ears very small ...

Hi Martijn

Yes that's so true. Not all EQs are doing good job here.

But as I mentioned. Let the orchestra mixed by MIR. You have a good distance and also the timbre in the high frequencies fits to the distance well with MIR.

Maybe it is enough just to add the solo instrument directly to the mix without any further treatment just with a little bit of tail so that it seems to stay in front of the whole orchestra.

If you think that it should get even more presence you could try to bring up the shiny components with a little help of an exiter or an "air-EQ".

Compare your mix with a real and modern recording. (Recordings nowadays are showing soloists closer to the listener than those from the ~2000 and earlier).

Here a little example of my last recording (mp3) (brass and marimba). Observe the nice depth you get. The marimba has the most shiny sound, hasn't it?

But you also get this effect with samples (mp3)...Also here - observe the difference in the hights between the orchestra and the solo violin.

All the best

Beat

[MWE]

Hi Beat,

That is some really awesome music and recording!

Thanks for your explanation.

Best,

 Martijn

[MWE]

Hi Beat and Max,

Finally some time to revisit and try your observations.

So I applied some compression to he flute to even the velocity differences in phrases (I liked the agility but it may have been excessive at moments and resulted in improper balance) . Next I removed the flute from mir and added a +-2 seconds hall synthetic tail as proposed ( also removed quite some bass and mid range response from the reverb). For me the balance has improved indeed (some more presence in the flute here and there. Specifically the beginning ), so thanks for that...

When listening to it now, refinement of phrasing & fermata of 1st violions and flute will be next... Besides I really would like to connect the orchestra to support/(cooperate with) the flute solo in a (more) musical way i.s.o. just front it. In imho I know what this work can do. (e.g more towards this arrangement or this ) so.. Suggestions are very welcome...

Thanks,

mwe

[Waldschrahdt]

Hallo Beat, absolutely astonishing what is possible in this time! I remember 30 (or even more) years ago at IRCAM just one single note for a viola had a listing for a "sound-computer" with more than 500 pages full of programm-scripting! But not only the samples are astonishing for me (as a new member here in VSL), also your perfect mixing and programming! Perhaps I may ask two things: In the marimba-peace -for my ears- the marimba is a little bit to strong. And in the second I miss the cembalo… Looking for further examples of your work with many greetings!

[Beat Kaufmann]

@Waldschrahdt said:

Perhaps I may ask two things: In the marimba-peace -for my ears- the marimba is a little bit to strong. And in the second I miss the cembalo…

Hello Waldschrahdt and welcome here in the family

Thanks for the compliments.

Just for fixing it: The piece with the "marimba" is a recording of a real brassband (world brass festival lucerne 2014).

The piece of Bach I produced with samples not long ago. I did it for showing somebody that changing articulations as often as possible can lead to a "close-to-reality-result".

So this peace isn't complete in any way... Currently I have not the time (unfortunately) for producing pieces. I am always very busy in my job.

Nevertheless, you are invited to listen to my music from 2003 - 2007...08...09 less and less till 2014

Have fun

Beat