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  • Instrument ranges

    P
    P

    After buying SE1 & 4, I am quite disappointed of some instruments' ranges. The ones I immediately run into trouble when switching my current music projects to Vienna are

    • Tenor trombone: The indicated range is C2 - D5.
      Bb1 is an absolutly standard note, even non-professionals can play G1 without any effort.
      The same in the other direction: I would expect that at least the range given in your academy, i.e. up to F5 is included.
    • Alto trombone: This gives two semi-tones more, up to E5. At least the same as for the tenor trombone applies here.

    In general, it would be very helpful if you include not only articulations but also instrument ranges on your product pages!
  • J
    J

    I must admit that I have limited knowledge of the supposed ranges of the instruments sampled but three things come to mind:

    After installing the libraries, did you also install any updates that might be associated with those libraries?

    Ranges are also articulation specific.  It could be that you have an articulation loaded that was not recorded in a lower/ higher range. Try loading other articulations and see what happens.

    Also check to make sure middle C is the same in the Vienna player as it is on your keyboard, DAW or notation software.  I think Vienna has it at C4?  You think you're playing C2 but you're actually playing C1 in the Vienna player.  

     

    Generally speaking the SE collections are limited in their capacities and capabilities when compared to the larger collections.
  • P
    P

    I did install all the updates, although I was very surprised the directory manager told me 0 files were updated for either of the libraries. However, the documentation for SE Brass also confirms the ranges I got from Vienna Instruments.

    Regarding the C adjustment (is there any possibility to adjust this in Sibeilus at all?) I also think it is correct. The played sounds are correct as well. Even if it were shiften, the problem would only be worse in the other direction, as the whole range covered is far too small.

    The range for the tenor trombone is the same in all available articulations.

    I have not found any statement regarding ranges, only articulations and ways of performance comparing the individual products, so I would really like to know whether the instrument ranges are also shrunk down in SE compared eg. purchasing the instrument alone.
  • M
    M

    For the low Bb you can load patches from the bass trombone. If you have Vienna Instruments Pro you can extend the range by 2 semitones in each direction. It won't use extra samples but transposes the lowest/highest notes. So this also would give you the low Bb, although the Bb from BTB, which is probably played at 1st position will perhaps sound more convincinc as a tenor pedal tone. When using the alto trombone for the one ultra high passage in your music, this would bring you to f#. 

    Before you complain about mixing up bass, tenor and alto trombone, as they are of cours three completely different instruments, truth about sample libraries is:

    It's not the name of the patch or even the intrument which matters, but only its sound. So if the high passage played with the alto trombone sounds convincingly like a tenor trombone, there is no reason to refrain from that use.
  • W
    W

    sorry, edited to be clearer and nicer below -
  • D
    D

    The range does seem rather odd. There is a strange thing with the Tenor Trombone where the notes B1-Eb2 historically don't exist (although are often covered these days by using a rotary valve), but Bb1 is quite common. In fact there are many times that I've used G1-Bb1, along with the Bass Trombone, and I'm not the only person. Prokofiev comes to mind. I'm also quite surprised that these notes don't exist within the VSL instruments. I'm assuming that because we have the Cimbasso, Bass Trombone and Contrabass Trombone, it was considered that we wouldn't need these notes for Tenor as well.

    DG
  • M
    M

    Well, William, as I said: There is a difference between real world instruments and sample instruments. A string player would also explain you that there is a huge difference between staccato and spiccato. In the sample-world however, sometimes you get even better results with a sfz patch for short notes.

    And a BASS TROMBONE BEING SO TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM A TENOR TROMBONE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE YELLED OUT? Come on! They have the same length, the same fundamentals and harmonics, and most tenor trombones played in todays Orchestras - in contrary to those used by jazz players - are in fact tenor-bass trombones with f-attachment and a wider bore, which are much closer to the actual bass trombone.

    So, again: do what sounds convincing. For example, the btb sfz patch on low Bb in my opinion sonds much more like a tenor trombone.
  • W
    W

    Sorry I should have been more straightforward.  The normally used range of the tenor trombone is from a low e below the bass clef to a b flat an octave above the staff.  Those are all played within the full partial range of the 7 positions of the slide.  There are additional notes below, though they are pedal notes and not normally written for tenor.  Also, some virtuoso players can play higher notes than the b flat but they are not too reliable in an orchestral context.  Jazz of course, but not normal orchestration.  However, the VSL range included is huge and virtuoso level - from a low c below the e, to a D above the high b flat.

    Now, if that is not wide enough, then the needs are beyond the requirements of Gustav Mahler orchestration.  Also, it is not good practice to write extreme low notes for tenor anyway, since the bass - which is essentially close to a full octave down from tenor (including VSL's samples) - handles those extreme low notes far better and is always used for themin the orchestra. 

    And mass mover - sorry if I was shouting - I always am talking strictly about real world, because VSL samples actually allow one to directly represent that.  That is the whole point.

    And besides, why are you talking about these ranges? - you should be listening to the Ravel on the D Strings II New Demo thread. 
  • P
    P

    Ah, thank you for the bass regime. I will try out loading bass trombone patches. And if it sounds ok (which I can believe), that's no problem at all.
    As I am writing for my trombone quartett, I am not particularly interested in the range of orchestral trombone, but rather [chamber] trombone itself (or perhaps what would be solo trombone in orchestra - I just think of David G1 - C5 [though there are performances going to Eb5], Sachse Bb1 - B4, Gräfe F1 - C5). So while the tenor's bottom range is poor, but can be fixed by using bass trombone, the top range is... ok, though not in accord with your own statements about the range. But the only reason I bought Alto Trombone is I hoped F5 is finally included in this instrument - now I have to buy the pro software version as well; and even then, the highest note G5 currently used is not in its range.

    @William: What do you mean with "normally used range"? This goes at least down to F2, even in warmup trainings. Within an orchestra, I agree you won't need to play pedal notes (ie below F2) very often. But since there is no extra instrument such as "solo trombone", the ordinary one should do the work, as solo concertos will definitely use those notes. And what do you mean with your last paragraph? I am talking about these ranges, as the only way - and correct me if I'm wrong - to know the ranges of an instrument is to buy it before. Btw. there is no Ravel on Dimesion Strings II (yet; and neither on DBrassII, if you meant this one). Btw2, all the issues I was talking about here are for a piece that is going to be played by my (nonprofessional) ensemble, which I wanted to provide with nicer demos than before. I do not want to create something that only a computer can play, this is real world.
  • W
    W

    By normally used range I was talking about orchestration, not what players practice at home.  Of course a quartet could have a greater range than that.  Most of the time extreme low notes are given to bass trombone in scores. Though of course you can find exceptions.   And I am not talking about sample libraries - my experience comes from performing in symphony and chamber ensembles on horn for many years, so my focus is on how instruments are used in practice, especially in a practical way. That is how I learned about orchestration - not from books and especially not from sample libraries, but from listening to players right next to me in often not very good ensembles.  And so I developed an approach which did not write the most extreme and difficult things, all the time.    If you wish to write extreme range notes, BEYOND the VSL notes which extend very far, you can do so.  Since this is an orchestral library that was why I was focusing on the "normally used range" of orchestration.      

    Mother Goose Suite is the demo I did by Ravel, and on the list that is included in the other thread's link. Though I shouldn't hijack the thread and was only joking anyway.  I will sign off - I shouldn't intrude into these discussions anyway and apologize for my interruption.    
  • M
    M

    The PRO player is a great addition to the samples, though if it's only about those 2 xtra notes you can save the money. The PRO player uses simple pitch shifting algorithms for the range extension, so you basically get the same effect by writing the passage 2 semitones lower and program pitchbend CC in your Host sequencer, or use any other means for pitch-shifting. Not as convenient, though, but if very high passages do not occur too often this would be a reasonable solution.
  • W
    W
    last edited
    last edited

    btw, here is the link to the Ravel -

    https://www.vsl.co.at/en/News/Recently_Added