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Original symphonic work - feedback on realism
Last post Tue, Oct 25 2016 by stan-k, 9 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Oct 21 2016 13:10
by stan-k
Joined on Tue, Jun 24 2014, Posts 42

Hello everyone,

I would very much appreciate your feedback on the technical side/execution of this work. Obviously, it was rendered using sample libraries (VSL), and I'd like to know if you find anything particularly unnatural or unrealistic, i.e. use of articulatoins, dynamics, etc. Basically, how close, within reason, to the real orchestral sound is it, the overall feel?

Amorisque III (mostly loud and fast)
Amorisque II (mostly calm and slow)

Thank you.

You can listen to the entire work here.

Stan K
Posted on Fri, Oct 21 2016 18:59
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

I think you use only basic articulations without extensive programming. Also on orchestration side it sounds like homophonic writing for piano rather than orchestral composition. Dynamics is same all the way, tempo is same all the time. What set of libraries you use. For realism you should go for the more expensive bundles from VSL.

Posted on Sat, Oct 22 2016 11:25
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

You did this with the one of the SE collections?

I don't know if my ears have become hypersensitive to this over the years but what a difference there is between whole tone and half tone sampling.  It's kind of like the difference you'd see between a photo shot by a 12 megapixel camera and one shot by a 6 megapixel camera.

It's like this Stan, your piece here would sound stuningly realistic if it were 1996 instead of 2016.  I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything it just sounds like something done with 16 bit ROM samples conceived by a synthesizer workstation instead of a virtual orchestra.  Some of the woodwind passages are somewhat plausable but the strings and brass just have an overall thinness to them.  I think some sweetening might hide the lack of detail but it would take somebody very skilled to pull it off.

On the bright side, I very much enjoyed your compositions  The Amorisque III didn't seem like an eleven and a half minute piece at all and I listened to it twice.  I don't know what it is but some composers write these lengthy epics and it's as if they go out of their way to find the most uninteresting theme then ramble on and on with it only to be followed by yet another uninspiring "theme."  Eleven minutes may as well be eleven hours. But not your piece.  I enjoyed every minute of it

Originally Posted by: stan-k Go to Quoted Post

You can listen to the entire work here.

And so I did... Again, what a refreshing change of pace.  Thank you for posting.

So I think the problem here Stan is that your available sample arsenal is just inadequate for your compositional ambitions.  So my advice is to start small with maybe those woodwinds and if money is an issue, just build your libraries bit by bit.  Try to stay within one family until completion then move on to the next one.  In other words, try to buy the most comprehensive woodwinds or strings or brass or whatever library you can afford when you have all that you need (full libraries) then move on to the next and so on.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sat, Oct 22 2016 13:30
by stan-k
Joined on Tue, Jun 24 2014, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

You did this with the one of the SE collections?

Yes, SE1+/VI/VI Pro/MIRx.

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post

So I think the problem here Stan is that your available sample arsenal is just inadequate for your compositional ambitions.  So my advice is to start small with maybe those woodwinds and if money is an issue, just build your libraries bit by bit.  Try to stay within one family until completion then move on to the next one.  In other words, try to buy the most comprehensive woodwinds or strings or brass or whatever library you can afford when you have all that you need (full libraries) then move on to the next and so on.

It's kind of what I expected to hear, and, of course, you're right, there is a huge difference between SE's and the full libraries. So I guess I will have to follow your advice for a more realistic sound. Thank you for the feedback, it actually puts things into persepctive for me. 

Stan K
Posted on Sat, Oct 22 2016 13:44
by Francesco Pirrone
Joined on Tue, Sep 30 2014, Posts 258

Hi Stan,

i enjoyed your music and i must agree with Jasen either on the good composition and the quite unnatural sounding rendition.

On the samples: i can say for certain that half tone sampling is good, however, the Special Edition can still do believable orchestral renditions..... some demos (e.g. Decision Day) sound great to my ears and don't show their age at all. In my opinion, 50% is about the performance: each stave has to be perfectly believable, the remaining 50% is about impulse responses and panning. If you have the opportunity to import in your DAW the project files of Special Edition Demo 01 or Decision Day, you will find that Christian Kardeis is using much more wet signal that one would imagine at first glance.

Sincerely 

Francesco

My music and social links -> https://linktr.ee/francescopirrone
Posted on Sat, Oct 22 2016 22:25
by YacobW
Joined on Sun, Aug 14 2011, London, Posts 49

I'm going to be incredibly boring and echo what everyone else has already said (the one difference being I know less on the subject than anyone else).

The only thing that I'd suggest to making things sound more natural is getting more reverb in there (currently I'm experimenting with the humanization efect in VI Pro with not-currently-great results).

Posted on Sun, Oct 23 2016 07:23
by stan-k
Joined on Tue, Jun 24 2014, Posts 42

Thank you for the feedback, Francesco and Yakob.

If you disregard I and II for a moment and only comment on III-V: is there any difference in the realism between the quiet and forte parts? Do the calm parts sound more natural than the forte ones or vice versa or not at all?

Stan K
Posted on Mon, Oct 24 2016 15:40
by Francesco Pirrone
Joined on Tue, Sep 30 2014, Posts 258

You are very welcome, Stan.

I had another listen to Amorisque III-IV, i do not hear a big difference between piano and forte (concerning the performance).... to an extent, loud parts might suffer from lack of depth more than the soft parts because of the dry percussion: as the percussion kicks in my ears expect to perceive it as a distant sound within the orchestral layout, it sounds close instead. This affects the realism a lot.

Again, please be clear that this is just my humble opinion and not a statement against the quality of your work.

I would love to have a play at your music with Vienna Suite one day... it would be fun. If this is not too forward, you can bounce 16 bars (each stave as .wav) and send it over. I would like to find out how much a different use of reverb might sweeten the performance.

Take care

Francesco

My music and social links -> https://linktr.ee/francescopirrone
Posted on Tue, Oct 25 2016 15:07
by stan-k
Joined on Tue, Jun 24 2014, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: Francesco Pirrone Go to Quoted Post

I would love to have a play at your music with Vienna Suite one day... it would be fun. If this is not too forward, you can bounce 16 bars (each stave as .wav) and send it over. I would like to find out how much a different use of reverb might sweeten the performance.

Just sent you a PM.

Stan K
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