The unreasonable second hand policy put into words beautifully

[djw]

On another forum, a legitimate VSL user wished to to sell their eLicenser key, but VSL staff seeked out his post to warn him that this can't be done: "Without a monitored license transfer to another user, the use of this product is not legal for the new license taker." The rebuttal to this is perfect. Please give it a read:

Hey Paul,

BTW this next comment doesn't take anything away from your cool software. But personally - if I have installers which were obtained through legitimate purchase - and physical dongle hardware in my hands with legitimate license activation on them (which is the only way your software works) - ready to be used by the physical owner of the sold physical key - then I very much can sell the item. Its mine. Just as you don't have a right to walk into my home and take my key as your property - you don't own the rights to me selling the physical key. Ridiculous that you think you do as you were paid in full for the item already - I should have full rights to sell my software and physical key as it can only be used in 1 place at one time. Its either I use it - or the new user uses it, never both. Your security protections are unbreakable in your current incarnation of elicenser deployment and prevents two separate users from using your software. Your policy is just a way to $$ capitalize, bleed money a second time on a transaction that is no longer yours to be a part of. 

Your policies for such legitimate salse are ridiculous, and only show to the public that you want your hands in on a second take of money for the deal. That's what you really should have put in your post. That's like mercedes or bmw collecting money on a car when its resold on the open market to a secondary buyer. Not sure why you software developers think you are entitled to such - its wrong in every way, and defies logic, common sense, and morality. Two users can't use your software at the same time, so piracy is not at issue here. 

Let's face it - your software is insanely overpriced, and those who have made the investment with you in the initial purchase - have contributed failry to your software development and your company's continued existence. WE did that. If you priced this software where it should be, and include reverbs in the package - you would make sales on Mir Pro 50 fold. Instead, your in a message board trying to police one single user with a legitimate private sale. Ridiculous, and places into perspective where your priorities are misappropriated - get out there and sell the software - not scavenge off of us legal users. 

I will seriously re-evaluate my current ownership of all your VSL software at this point. Part of of the backwards sales hook to use elicensers is that adjoining software can be used on any machines we entitle ourselves to plug the usb into. We bought it for that capability - its a physical item, and a key, and just like the key to my car If I sell it - its because I can, I own it, and I will. Deal with it. 

As a user that is worried that my dongle breaks and has to pay 20 euros per license, or that I lose it and have no licenses anymore whatsoever, and is also burdened by the enforced undue VSL tax that one is apparently hunted down for, I can only say: amen.

[jasensmith]

Since you posted this in a public forum I suppose some push back is warranted.

You understand that we're talking about intellectual property here not physical so the the analogies of VSL taking the keys to your home and the one about reselling a car that you bought don't apply in this realm. 

It's like buying the license to a popular song that you want to use in your movie and then wanting to resell that song license yourself to somebody else after the movie is released.  It doesn't work that way with intellectual property.

In fact, I'm rather surprised that VSL actually allows you to resell their software at all albeit under controlled conditions which don't seem all that unreasonable to me considering that, again, we are talking about intellectual property.  Although I've never tried it myself I understand you cannot resell any of Eastwest's products under any conditions.  Maybe I'm wrong?

And the idea of reselling a used dongle sounds pretty shady to me when you can just buy a new one for what? $20 or $30.  Assuming that the dongle has already been registered with VSL that means the warrenty may have already expired (two years)  Why would I want to buy an expired dongle? 

The software is priced based upon forces within the market for these types of products.  Supply and demand.  If the software is "overpriced" then how can they stay in business?  I don't suppose there has been a dramatic drop in sales recently, otherwise they would have dropped the price. 

I guess I didn't learn my lesson the last time I responded to a post like this because I have a feeling I'm going to regret it.😔

[djw]

>You understand that we're talking about intellectual property here not physical so the the analogies of VSL taking the keys to your home and the one about reselling a car that you bought don't apply in this realm. 

>It's like buying the license to a popular song that you want to use in your movie and then wanting to resell that song license yourself to somebody else

A license would be tied to me as a person, and isn't physical property. Does VSL understand this? They say:

@Another User said:

We believe, taking care of the key is nothing but self-responsibility. You won't expect any kind of warning if you put 1.000 bucks into your wallet. It's common sense that you won't get the money back if you loose it.

The 1000 bucks is my property right? Not a license. I could trade that 1000 bucks to anyone else.

Saying I have to insure my software license as physical property and then not letting me trade it as physical property is downright insulting. That combined with saying it's just a license but then when I lose a dongle to not grant me the license I paid for... it's unforgiveable.

[jasensmith]

You wouldn't be able to provide a link(s) to those quotes that you quoted out of context would you?  Just so that others can read the entire thread(s)

BTW when did VSL ever tell you to buy insurance?  DG doesn't work for VSL he's a user who recommends buyinig insurance and so do I, if you can.  Again, it would help to put the quotes in context.  (I don't represent VSL either)

And it still doesn't change the fact that we're dealing with intellectual property.  Intellectual property which can be pirated and stolen if precuations are not taken.  If the software is pirated and stolen it could drive VSL out of business and if that happens then eventually the software will not be compatible with evolving operating sytems.  Game Over for all of us.

 

And could you please explain why anybody would buy a used dongle which probably isn't under warranty anymore? You don't know the condition of that dongle or where it's been or if it contains malware etc....

[djw]

>You wouldn't be able to provide a link(s) to those quotes that you quoted out of context would you? Just so that others can read the entire thread(s) Click on the little icon next to the name. And VSL does recommend insurance. :/ User cm did it on this forum, but here's a fresh instance of it: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/whatever-happened-to-vsl.60820/page-3#post-4070243

[PaoloT]

What I can't understand is why the price for "handling the licenses" when a key is broken is so high (the replacement key, plus 20 euros for each license). The key is sent back to VSL, so they know it has no been given to someone else. The licenses are recorded in VSL's database, and easy to retrieve. Wouldn't the price of a replacement key, plus a minimal handling cost (non depending from the number of licenses) be enough to cover the costs for the operation? Using a fragile key is not a choice of the user, but of VSL. These things can break very easily.

Paolo

[jasensmith]

The way I understand it, if the key malfunctions within the two year warranty send it into VSL and they will inspect it. As long as the malfunction wasn't due to negligence on the user's part your licenses will be replaced free of charge😊

That's why you should buy a new key every two years and transfer the licenses😉

If you loose your key or it's stolen, whether two years or not, you're screwed😢

But whatever you do, don't buy a used key from another "user" whether it's been registered or not😈

[jasensmith]

@PaoloT said:

What I can't understand is why the price for "handling the licenses" when a key is broken is so high (the replacement key, plus 20 euros for each license).

Because VSL has to pay Steinberg for those licenses.  And how can VSL be at fault if your key physically breaks? A malfunction is different; you plug it into the usb drive and the light doesn't come on anymore, malfunctions. 

Paolo, this debate has been ragging on the forum for years.  The link that ominiq has provided is just one of many back and forths about this but it's good to do an forum search on the subject and educate yourself.

[PaoloT]

I've seen that discussion, but it still doesn't clarify the reason for the high price for "handling the licenses". If the small dongle breaks, you have not lost the licenses, you have a broken key. The licenses are still registered in VSL's databases. An easy solution would be sending back the broken key, replacing the key (by repurchasing), downloading to it the user's database of licenses (with payment for that operation, or by allowing the user to do it via the eLicenser software).

I'm too a bit disconcerted by these rules, that were not evident before purchasing the first VSL product. Handling costs were very vaguely stated, and I couldn't image they could be so high. Now I know this expensive software is in the hands of a small plasticky key, and don't feel too confident.

I continue to hate dongles. By comparison, when I had a computer crash, the licenses for software protected by a key in the hard drive were immediately restored, after I contacted the two companies and explained what had happened.

Paolo

[djw]

If I lose my key then that doesn't change whether I'm still licensed to use a product or not, unless it's just physical property (like a studio mixer), in which case I should be able to trade it without limitations. It's one or the other, so as customers let's make sure VSL decides which one it is, instead of getting the best of both worlds at our cost.

[PaoloT]

On the matter of software resale, the European Court of Justice (CJEU) has stated (in 2012) that software licensing is equivalent to a sale contract. Once paid for the full price, the consumer is free to resale it, providing the original copy is removed from the original user's computer.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?doclang=EN&text=&pageIndex=0&docid=124564&cid=255000

This should apply across all EU countries, while I don't know if something similar exists in other communities.

At the same time, the EU Directive 2011/83/EU states that digital contents sale (including software) are more akin a contract for gas or electricity supply, and not a sale contract:

"Similarly to contracts for the supply of water, gas or electricity, where they are not put up for sale in a limited volume or set quantity, or of district heating, contracts for digital content which is not supplied on a tangible medium should be classified, for the purpose of this Directive, neither as sales contracts nor as service contracts." (Premise 19)

I see a software resale more like the takeover of an electricity contract when you rent an apartment. You are not purchasing a second-hand good, but receiving the supply that was once for a different customer.

Paolo

[Dominique]

There has been a bit of a buzz about this on another forum as well, and it is good that customers are made aware of this policy.

 

If your dongle breaks and is not under warranty, you pay 20€ per license to have them restored. If you own all VSL libraries and software, that would amount to 960€, just to have the licenses recovered. The Terms of Licence simply reads: 'shall be replaced in return for a handling fee'. Surely it looks like a handling fee of 960€ exceeds the cost induced to VSL by that process? And certainly the vague term 'a handling fee' doesn't make customers aware of to what it actually can amount. If the fee is that high it should be explicitly stated in the Terms of Licence in my opinion.

 

If your dongle gets stolen or lost you have to pay 50% of the libraries price to restore the licence. Michael Hula wrote on this forum: 'So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution.'

The Terms of Licence reads: ' Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser'. Huh? Can VSL block the licenses or not?

And again, the passus 'Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library' is vague and doesn't make the customer aware of the actual expenses. Again, the height of the fee (=50% of the price of the library) should be explicitly stated in the Terms of Licence in my opinion.

 

Finally, Eastwest apparently does replace lost or stolen licenses free of charge. And so does Steinberg, which uses the same dongle as VSL. If your dongle is stolen or lost, Steinberg replaces your Cubase license free of charge.

I hope VSL is working towards more customer friendly solutions in this regard. Having to buy an extra insurance policy if you want to invest into VSL libraries is not customer friendly solution in my opinion, and it lacks behind the customer support of other companies in these special cases.

 

In all other respects VSL customer support has always been top notch for me. Fast, helpful, and friendly. Kudos to the support team and the whole company for their great work. In this particular case however I wish VSL can adapt and improve their policy.