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I think the problem is nobody knows how to use Sy Strings 1 yet.
Last post Mon, Aug 20 2018 by fahl5, 15 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 06:04
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

Attached is a file of a couple basic little things... I dunno guys... to me much of this is indistinguishable from real strings.  I'm still learning this library, but I'm beginning to like it more than the other VSL libraries.

File Attachment(s):
SynchronU0020StringsU0020BasicU0020Cues.mp3 (3,971kb) downloaded 115 time(s).

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2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 07:29
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Nice warm swells,

Did you programmed them with CC-editing? Velocity X-Fade or/and CC11 (Expression), anything else?

Did you changed anything notably in the Synchron-Mixer-EQ's?

I think this is defenitly very promising.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 09:58
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 311

Despite the fact that your production is pretty nice and well done, and anyway with full respect for your opinion, I have to strongly disagree with "the problem is...".

First of all, obviously the library is not crap, it has several good things inside, and some nice well-recorded samples, but it doesn't balance the already deeply explored and technically explained weak-points, we all repeated in previous posts up to sickness. The fact of mastering the library has nothing to do with the overall disappointment: 

- you are actually using in your sample long notes, with low vibrato, little or no articulation, and hyper-wet reverb. For this athmospheric sequences the library works well, but to be very honest, not so different to tons of other already existing products for easy or quick cinematic composing. (even some professional keyboards may do it).

- if it was a matter of long and tough learning-curve for the user, then anyway SyS failed the aim: VSL had the aim of creating a quick and easy fast production tool, not a complex and difficoult to manage tool. In my opinion the tool is not difficoult to use at all. Controls are streight forward and the player is pretty simple and clear. The fact you have to work-around so much with dynamics, reverb and eQ to get acceptable sound is the evidence of the weakness. The idea was the opposite, to have it flexible and good-sounding out-of-the-box.

As everybody else noticed, the problem is that if you are not writing a cinematic long notes athmospheric sequence, you will get the harsh synthy sound everytime you try to get expression and articulation in melodic and moving phrases. If you finally try to get the rich variety of articulations of a classical or romantic string orchestra, then you will just get low of ammunitions... too little and too similar articulations to get the requested sound.

We had already Dimension strings and MIR Pro to make the sound and realism to perfection: the only reason to make something new and different, was to make it easy and fast, as requested by professional producers workflow (very often it's: a master-keyboard improvvisation to get inspired, and then a fast set-up and often live-keyboard performance + rough quantization, then editing of MIDI data just for refinement).

For spending long time in programming sequences for accurate performance, Synchron Strings were not the tool, as clearly explained by the advertising, tutorials, and demos of VSL.

Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 12:00
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

... already deeply explored and technically explained weak-points, we all repeated in previous posts up to sickness.

You are absolutly right the "opinions" of those who scarcly showed that much serious audible attempts with Synchron have been repeated more than enough. Whatever you agree or disagree, please just give place to those who realy work with the library and their results....

Now I am at least way more interested in Stephens concrete solutions,

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Fri, Aug 17 2018 13:15
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

I agree with Fatis. This demo isn't too bad, but also not so hard to pull off by any library. It doesn't show agility, legato or expression in a very typical setting. Not dissing the style of music demoed - I am all for it, I like it, but it is really an example of showing the library from its very best side, without much change in expression, only using very long notes etc.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Sat, Aug 18 2018 07:06
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

I'll post Tchaikovsky next now that I know what I'm doing.

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Sat, Aug 18 2018 10:21
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

....for easy or quick cinematic composing. (even some professional keyboards may do it). [emphasis added]

....The fact you have to work-around so much with dynamics....

Also, these are were exceedingly hilarious/absurd statements.  I never feel the need to defend little mockups I make for the VSL forum.  But "work-around so much with dynamics" is exactly why I've only been in the business for two years and have been gainfully employed the whole time: proper immitation of an orchestra requires that one spend time on the dynamics.

Couldn't let that one slide.

 

Fahl5;

CC automation includes Velocity Xfade, Attack, and a touch of Expression to taper note endings.  I've found the behavior of how the instrument reponds, given the increased number of velocity layers, means that the Velocity Xfade can make "drastic" moves in comparison to other VSL libraries that still sound musical.

Also, if the voices are moving at the same time, I play the top voice, then copy paste down to the other sections, and change the notes accordingly.  That helped establish a concise ensemble feel.

Lastly, nothing is on the grid. ;)

Tone production, once I have a more tested philosophy, I'll let everyone know.  But the jist of it is that I'm treating different mic positions with different types of saturation, even adding a little distortion, with some 3rd party plugins.  I'm finding that is a "secret" to great tone.  Verb is the Synchron verb.

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Sat, Aug 18 2018 18:17
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Those chords sound great, very atmospheric sound - I really like the harmony and the dynamics are perfect. 

Posted on Sat, Aug 18 2018 21:06
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 311

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

....for easy or quick cinematic composing. (even some professional keyboards may do it). [emphasis added]

....The fact you have to work-around so much with dynamics....

Also, these are were exceedingly hilarious/absurd statements....

Well, Stephen, I suppose there is some language or cultural issue, because I just see you didn't understand a single word of what I wrote. Then first I try to explain:

- you don't have to defend your little work, because I clearly wrote I think it's pretty nice and well done. Then your personal sensibility should not get offended, and should not feel the need of reacting with some emotional mood or "defensive" attitude at all.

- I wrote something detailed and clear about: your assumption that all are just lazy people that didn't understand yet how to work with SyS, and that's why they are disappointed or they don't get the right sound out of it. I also wrote something detailed about the technical stuff you exploited in your work. I'm curious to listen to your next more complex Tchaikovsky, to see if you will get equally good and realistic results out of the comfort zone of SyS (long notes, low vibrato, slow articulation, super-wet reverb etc.).

But I have to add a comment about the useless offensive form of your answer:

I don't get why you extrapolate my sentence about dynamic totally misunderstanding the meaning, but I feel some prejudice and a little excess of self confidence drove you in this direction, that's why I had to answer, otherwise I should just ignore your offenses. It's obvious to almost ALL the memebers, including the beginners, that musical expression is coming from accurate use of controllers. What's the need of your comment that of course you do it... do you think you are the only one? Do you think me or others don't know? If you were more cautious and less emotional, you maybe can get I was talking about the whole set of issues of SyS vs. other libraries, issues that also your firend Fahl was exactly depicting (e.g. eQ etc.), and were object of analysis and debate by great musicians of the community, I hope you aren't brave enough of criticizing... in case you are, ok I got your point and no need to talk further about it.

Posted on Sun, Aug 19 2018 00:48
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

CC automation includes Velocity Xfade, Attack, and a touch of Expression to taper note endings.  I've found the behavior of how the instrument reponds, given the increased number of velocity layers, means that the Velocity Xfade can make "drastic" moves in comparison to other VSL libraries that still sound musical.

Yes currnetly I tend to use Velocity XFade and than - if necessaey additional - CC11 Tweak likewise and it seems to me as if I use it more often than with prior VSL-Libraries as soon I have a not with a bit longer duration I think about to edit its development quite similar.

Honestly isn't that excactly what the good Violinst learned (after keeping the right pitch). to give his tone always its tastful individual musical development. I fear there is no software automatism which will musical convincing do this job for us. Perhaps this is a reason, why those who dont do that might have more difficulties than you to get a nice speaking stringsound out of this library.

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Tone production, once I have a more tested philosophy, I'll let everyone know.  But the jist of it is that I'm treating different mic positions with different types of saturation, even adding a little distortion, with some 3rd party plugins.  I'm finding that is a "secret" to great tone.  Verb is the Synchron verb.

This is very interesting for me I still try to improve my usage of the vast options to design the tone in Synchron in each new project, But I like your focus on this aspect when you explore the Synchron Strings.

Thank you for your detailed answer.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sun, Aug 19 2018 13:36
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

And there you have it, kids. This kind of revolutionary insight is exactly why this forum needs fahl5. Use the modwheel. It seems such a far-fetched idea, but given the obvious, audible rigor and dilligence that goes into the sculpting of convincing and emotive virtual perfomance in his own works, who would ever doubt it?

I have another secret studio tip for anyone who might struggle to get the best out of their virtual instruments. On many studio monitors, when you look at the back side, there is a switch that says ON/OFF. Put this switch in the ON position - many monitors emit a suggestive light upon doing this - and play something on your keyboard. You will find the results distinctively more musical and way less katastrofahl!

I have to wrap it up for now, as I'm in a bit pressed for time at the moment. I have a meeting with a client who has ample interest in purchasing this bridge I've been trying to sell.

Posted on Sun, Aug 19 2018 14:10
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 554

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

And there you have it, kids. This kind of revolutionary insight is exactly why this forum needs fahl5. Use the modwheel. It seems such a far-fetched idea, but given the obvious, audible rigor and dilligence that goes into the sculpting of convincing and emotive virtual perfomance in his own works, who would ever doubt it?

I have another secret studio tip for anyone who might struggle to get the best out of their virtual instruments. On many studio monitors, when you look at the back side, there is a switch that says ON/OFF. Put this switch in the ON position - many monitors emit a suggestive light upon doing this - and play something on your keyboard. You will find the results distinctively more musical and way less katastrofahl!

I have to wrap it up for now, as I'm in a bit pressed for time at the moment. I have a meeting with a client who has ample interest in purchasing this bridge I've been trying to sell.

Now, this is comedy! :) 

Posted on Sun, Aug 19 2018 15:02
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

And there you have it, kids. This kind of revolutionary insight is exactly why this forum needs fahl5. Use the modwheel. It seems such a far-fetched idea, but given the obvious, audible rigor and dilligence that goes into the sculpting of convincing and emotive virtual perfomance in his own works, who would ever doubt it?

Haha :) Yeah... I also chuckled quite a bit reading Fahl's response. Actually, I think my eyes took several 360 degrees rotations too. Words just don't suffice here.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Sun, Aug 19 2018 16:52
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

I agree - Jimmy has added some fine ironic writing here, very refreshing to read after all the "Synchron is BAD!" "No, Synchron is GOOD! Neener. neener! " posts that seem to prevail now.

Posted on Mon, Aug 20 2018 00:02
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

 fine ironic writing

OMG

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
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