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Routing 5.0 in Nuendo
Last post Fri, Oct 16 2020 by Dietz, 10 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 03:26
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 60

In Nuendo I have created a 5.0 group at which all of my instrument channels are routed.

A 5.0 panner appears on all of those channels. 

When I open MIR and select any of the 5.0 microphone arrays as the output,

I get a warning message.

When I open the routing matrix the L R C LS and RS channels appear on the left, but only Left and Right appear on the top column of the columns, keeping me from routing any audio to C LS or LR.

Indeed only the first two meters (of 5) on each channel in Nuendo are showing output.

How do I correct this so I can use the 5.0 output from MIR?

Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 08:19
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451

Two things come to mind:

- In its plug-in version, the very first instance of MIR defines the number of output channel for all other instances, so please make sure that there's no remaining stereo instance when starting to mix in surround.

- Nuendo and Cubase "think" differently than many other DAWs when it comes to the channel count of tracks. Nuendo won't change a track's internal signal flow from stereo to surround just by adding a plug-in with the respective number of outputs. To be able to use a surround plug-in with a stereo source you will have to create a surround track and drag the audio file on it, even if it's stereo. Continue from there.

Hint: In cases where you aren't aiming for "circle surround" with instruments all around you, but for some kind of enhanced stage scenario with reverb and reflections from the back, it's a neat little trick to use an L/C/R-setup for MIR's Main Microphone, and a "rears only" settings for the Secondary Mic, using one of the mic positions in the back of the Venue. Instant surround nirvana. ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 15:55
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 60

So what I was trying to do is take an existing stereo mix, then convert it to surround by changing the outputs in MIR and sending them to a 5.0 bus.

Are you saying I have to completely remove all instances of MIR, then reload all of them?

Can I do this without losing my placements/mix?

 

"To be able to use a surround plug-in with a stereo source you will have to create a surround track and drag the audio file on it, even if it's stereo. Continue from there."

 

But I am using Instrument tracks, which are stereo. Don't I just need a 5.0 bus to route the 5.0 outputs from MIR? 

Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 18:04
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451

Hm, that's tricky (it would be easier with audio tracks). You won't lose your placements, but there will take some effort to achieve your goal. ... mind you - that's a shortcoming of Nuendo, not MIR: Due to the fact that Steinberg's DAWs aren't able to change a track from one channel configuration to another by means of a plug-in (e.g. stereo to surround), you will have to route each instrument to dedicated 5.0 group manually.

A step-by-step guide:

0. Turn down the monitor volume - some burst and crackles might happen.

1. Create a 5.0 Group Channel for each Instrument Track (... name them accordingly to make things easier).

2. Route each Instrument Track to the respective Group.

3. Drag the MIR plug-in from the Instrument Track to an insert slot of the respective 5.0 Group Channel. The plug-in will show an error message saying that there's a channel configuration mismatch - that's ok! ;-)

4. Make sure that there aren't any stereo instances left, save your project under a new name and close it. 

5. Make sure that MIR's Main GUI has closed, too, or do it manually from the task-bar (right-click > Quit).

6. Re-open the saved project. All instances should now be alive again, in 5.0 configuration.

7. Select a 5.0 Main Microphone setup in MIR's Output Channel.

... that should do the trick. 

There are other workarounds which make use of the "Force Number Of Output Channels"-option in MIR's Preferences, but this might not be necessary in your case.

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 19:28
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 60

Thanks Dietz!

 

I will try this out in a few minutes.

I should note however that your statement here:

"Due to the fact that Steinberg's DAWs aren't able to change a track from one channel configuration to another by means of a plug-in (e.g. stereo to surround), you will have to route each instrument to dedicated 5.0 group manually."

 

Doesn't sound totally correct. With DearVR pro I can load instances on stereo channels routed to a TOA bus and use the TOA panner without having to create dummy group channels like you mention here. Am I missing something?

Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 19:31
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451

What's a TOA-bus?

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 20:19
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 60

Third Order Ambisonics

Posted on Thu, Oct 15 2020 20:24
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451

Oh, I wasn't aware of that abbreviation. :-)

Are you sure that you're using DearVR as a plug-in and not as a panning device (which makes a difference, from Nuendo's POV)? In the latter case, you could indeed go to any kind of output configuration, but that's not the same scenario.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Oct 16 2020 00:02
by VirtualVirgin
Joined on Fri, Jul 20 2012, Posts 60

So yes, I can confirm that those instructions worked for converting the project to 5.0 :)

Certainly cumbersome though. I am finding that changing output formats is not very smooth in general.

I am using DearVR often and a major drawback is group editing.

I can select each track with the plugin and edit all instances for some parameters, but not the output controls (which is very unfortunate when using a large orchestral template).

If I want to change from binaural stereo to TOA or surround I have to change this setting on every individual instance. Dear Reality could learn a few lessons from MIR about implementing global controls.

On the other hand, I wonder if MIR could tap into the panner function the way other plugins do (and yes I was using DearVR in the panner slot).

I am concerned about being able to switch output formats with little effort as the future seems like we must become more adaptable to meet delivery format needs. A composer might write something that could end up on TV, in the theater with a dozen different surround configurations including Atmos, a video game asset for 6DOF, binaural for VR... 

Posted on Fri, Oct 16 2020 06:57
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7451

Good to hear that this worked for you. The task is much easier to achieve in other DAWs (... and this comes from a former Nuendo evangelist ;-) ...).

Years ago I asked VSL's software engineers to implement the "panner" option for MIR to make it work in the panning device slot of Steinberg's DAWs. Their answer was that this would make software maintenance more complicated, so we decided to see if there was a general need for this feature. Your request was the first. 8-)

You're right regarding the increased need for multiple output configurations in modern media production. I made it a habit to mix in the "highest" possible format and to make controlled down-mixes to "lesser" formats from there. 

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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