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Posted on Thu, Sep 08 2022 14:31
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 555

Hello all,

If you play Legato fast of the Synchron WW Solo Instruments … there Must be a wrong Mapping.

(Ich höre beim Spielen artefaktartige Ton-Schlenker/ in Terzen … betrifft aber nur Legato Fast; nicht Regular. Liegt nicht an der DAW … tritt auch im Player-Standalone Mode auf. Wahrscheinlich ein Mapping Problem in der Software? SYPlayer 1.2.174)


BR, Lars

Windows 11, Cubase 12

Posted on Thu, Sep 08 2022 19:11
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13900

Hi Lars, 

What you hear are the remnants of the fast transitions from other notes. We were using fast note successions to extract the fast legato, and sometimes a note from a different scale might be in there. Nothing to do against this, but you can of course always stick with the normal legato for exposed passages (and, e.g., speed up the transition part with time-stretching, if necessary). 


Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Sep 08 2022 20:16
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 555

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the answer. I will Stick to the regulär Versions then.

BR, Lars
Windows 11, Cubase 12

Posted on Sat, Jan 14 2023 01:48
by prodamu
Joined on Sun, Jan 20 2008, Sweden, Posts 26

Hi Paul,
I agree with LAJ that the mapping is wrong. I was going to contact support when I found this thread in the forum.

First I didn't understand what was wrong, the fast legato for the Synchron Solo Woodwinds just sounded very bad. This is the same for all solo instruments that I've tried this on, so I guess that all of them is affected.

After some investigation I found that this incorrect mapping just exists for the room mics, not the mid and close mics. And it's just affecting intervals smaller than a minor 3rd, i.e. minor and major 2nd intervals.

The problem is that wrong legato transition is used in those cases. Here is what's happening:

  • If I play an upward major 2nd legato the downward major 2nd legato transition is used
  • If I play an upward minor 2nd legato the downward minor 2nd legato transition is used
  • If I play an downward major 2nd legato the upward major 2nd legato transition is used
  • If I play an downward minor 2nd legato the upward minor 2nd legato transition is used

To reproduce this, just turn off the mid and close mics and just use any room mic(s) and play any 2nd interval repeated back and forth. Then you hear that the transitions going in the opposite direction. If you play it fast, like a trill, it will sound almost like a cluster because the right and wrong notes are sounding together.

Then I became curious as to whether this also applies to other Synchron libraries, so I tested this on Synchron Strings Pro (the agile legato), on Synchron Elite Strings and on Synchron Brass. Unfortunately it's the same problem 😬.

A screen recording example is attached and I will send this to the support as well... 

File Attachment(s):
SynchronU0020LibrariesU0020wrongU0020fastU0020legatoU0020mapping-480.mov (17,331kb) downloaded 10 time(s).

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Posted on Mon, Jan 16 2023 18:35
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 392

I also think that the mapping is wrong... I never liked the agile legatos and thought that something sounded very off, but haven't figured out what exactly. And to be honest: Sorry, Paul, but just neglecting the agile legatos and use the normal ones instead... if this new recording approach isn't good or just was a try, than offer us an alternative. At the current state the patches are useless when playing everything under maj 3rds. The VI instruments had excellent fast and trill legatos.

Would be nice to have some clarification from VSL! Maybe the normal legatos have some issues, too ... For example, the new lyrical legato of the solo horns (which I dislike at all) has similar "problems" with certain intervals. And it's, maybe, because of the same reason, i.e. recording scales instead of dedicated landing notes.

If the Synchron legatos and agile legatos are captured with this new approach, by playing scales, I don't think that this is good at all. The VI legatos had dedicated landing notes. I know it's very tedious to record and edit, but sounds way more real and is the best proof why the VI instruments still excel in this regard. This is just a guess here, because I don't know how the normal Synchron legatos were recorded.

Posted on Tue, Jan 17 2023 00:35
by prodamu
Joined on Sun, Jan 20 2008, Sweden, Posts 26

I got answer from VSL support by email today but they deny that something would be wrong with the fast legato transitions. All they admitted was that the fast/agile legato intervals work best for runs, but do not work for trills, which means there is no good way to play measured trills/two-note-tremolos with Synchron instruments in faster tempos. Only with the regular legato intervals in slower tempos.

My question to other users is if you hear that the fast second interval transitions sounds like they are going in the wrong direction? It's just the room mics that are affected. The close and mid mics works great. E.g. if you play from one note a half or a whole step downwards the transition seem to go up a half or whole step from the same note. Is it just in my ears it sounds like this?

Paul said "What you hear are the remnants of the fast transitions from other notes. We were using fast note successions to extract the fast legato, and sometimes a note from a different scale might be in there." But for me it's not sometimes. It's always for the 2nd intervals and never for the 3rd and larger intervals. But but sometimes more clearly than other times. 

Then my question to VSL is why the fast 3rd and larger intervals sounds good if the remnants is the problem? They should be a problem for those intervals too. Are they recorded or edited in different ways? And in that case why isn't the 2nd intervals created in the same way as the larger intervals if it actually works much better?

Something is wrong. I do not think VSL has mapped every library wrong, I rather think it's either the Synchron player that of some reason picks the wrong legato sample for the smallest fast intervals. OR they have used an other recording/editing approach for 2nd intervals that doesn't work. But WHY when the larger intervals works fine? I do not understand...

Posted on Tue, Jan 17 2023 12:47
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3709

Hello prodamu and Pixelpoet 1985!

If you go from D to C, you may in some cases hear a remnant from E that has been played before in the room microphones. It may sound to you like a D to E transition, but it is what remained in the room from the E that has been played earlier.

We have recorded fractions of scale runs for agile legato. They bring better results when performing runs, but may have side effects when playing other things like normal legatos or trills. Intervals bigger than 2nds have been slightly edited from the normal legato transitions.

For the Horn lyrical vibratos we recorded slow, lyrical transitions. So they are something completely different.

Best regards,

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
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