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Digital Performer 11 and VE Pro 7 -- very large file size
Last post Sun, Feb 12 2023 by JohnG, 7 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2023 15:07
by JohnG
Joined on Thu, Jan 27 2011, Los Angeles, Posts 20

Hi all,

Simply put, with VE Pro, my file size is about 290 MB and without VE Pro, the file size drops below 2 MB.  I think this seems excessive and am seeking any suggestions.

I'm using the latest version of VE Pro (7.2.1495) with Digital Performer 11.21.  The configuration is:

1. A single  VE Pro Server Project open, with

2. 16 VE Pro Instances in a Digital Performer V-Rack; and 

3. Three VE Pro (MAS) connections to external PCs.

Even when I have disabled all the VE Pro connections and instances, and with the external PCs powered off, the file size remains at 290 MB.  However, deleting all the VE Pro instances (and connections to PCs) produces a file size of 1.1 MB.  I also flushed the Undo History.

Some of the VE Pro Instances have large numbers of plugins (over 40 in a couple of them) so rebuilding from scratch and combining them into fewer instances would be a huge undertaking.  It would also require a lot of rerouting.  Doable but very fiddly.

FWIW I've been at this for decades and have written many dozens of hours of music for TV, games, streaming, and movies.

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

John
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Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2023 20:54
by dterry
Joined on Thu, Jan 30 2003, Posts 72

John,

Are you referring to DP's project file size on disk, or memory usage?  

I am testing on Windows at the moment, so there will likely be significant differences in actual numbers, but comparing relatively, maybe this will help:

On disk, a DP11 project takes 175kb here, and with a single instance of VEPro,198kb, connected and not connected (same either way). 

In RAM, the project takes over 2G with no tracks, and no VEPro - just an empty DP project.

Nuendo 12 is similar, though it takes a bit less RAM at first, and about twice as much as DP for the save file - still low.  290M isn't a lot for a DAW project save file with tracks, plugins, routing, etc, unless that is the amount DP's file size grows per instance of VEPro - that could be an issue for sure. 

DP uses a lot of resources for connections - busses, VEPro, etc.  On Windows, it becomes too sluggish to use.  On Mac M1, DP is 1000x better, but it still may be a bit resource intensive.  
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Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2023 21:16
by JohnG
Joined on Thu, Jan 27 2011, Los Angeles, Posts 20

Hi there,

Thanks for replying. “Are you referring to DP's project file size on disk, or memory usage?  ”

I was talking about the project file size on disk.  I assume your figures are actually MB, not KB?

As far as RAM, I have an enormous amount so that is not an issue for me, but even when I have a huge template going with dozens and dozens of virtual instruments, soft synths and the like, it never goes above 100GB in RAM (including all the VE Pro instances).

RAM

The RAM usage for an empty project is 1.2 GB.

I don’t use too much routing on my DAW, relatively speaking.  I print all audio to Pro Tools on a separate computer (old school I know, but have been working like that a long time).

Thanks again,

John
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Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2023 23:41
by Andreas8420
Joined on Mon, Dec 02 2019, Vienna, Posts 344

Hi John,

Each plugin that you are using in your project does save its data and plugins can save a LOT of data, just by inserting them. That's also why the project file is much smaller, once you deleted VE Pro instances (with plugins inside that save data).

In short: It's not VE Pro causing that data - it's the instruments & patches you are using. Especially Kontakt can save huge amounts of data inside the project file.

Best regards,
Andreas

Technical Support - Vienna Symphonic Library
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Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2023 23:57
by Bill
Joined on Fri, Sep 23 2005, Berkshires, MA, Posts 1286

Isn't this just when VEP is coupled?

Dorico, Finale, Sibelius, Notion, Overture, Cubase, StaffPad
Win11 x64, 64GB RAM; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, Bunch of VSL, VIP, VEP, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190
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Posted on Sun, Feb 12 2023 03:39
by dterry
Joined on Thu, Jan 30 2003, Posts 72

Originally Posted by: JohnG Go to Quoted Post

I was talking about the project file size on disk.  I assume your figures are actually MB, not KB?

My numbers are KB.  My DP11 template (VEPro7 hosted on the same PC) is 1.7MB.  
When I had a Mac M1 here, I setup my DP 11 template to compare performance, and the template project (with 4 instances of VEPro) was 10MB for the Rosetta version, and 2MB for the IPmidi version (not using VEPro in DP, but standalone via network midi and audio I/O). 

My VEPro tests are all with VEP MAS plugins decoupled.

With one VEP instance coupled, the DP 11 project save jumps to 12MB.
With all four VEP instances coupled, it hits just under 50MB. 

If you have 19 instances, all coupled, that would equate to around 200MB, so 290MB isn't out of the question (especially accounting for any differences between my PC tests vs the Mac version).

If these are decoupled, the DP project file should be only a few MB.  
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Posted on Sun, Feb 12 2023 16:13
by JohnG
Joined on Thu, Jan 27 2011, Los Angeles, Posts 20

Originally Posted by: Andreas8420 Go to Quoted Post

Each plugin that you are using in your project does save its data and plugins can save a LOT of data, just by inserting them. That's also why the project file is much smaller, once you deleted VE Pro instances (with plugins inside that save data).

In short: It's not VE Pro causing that data - it's the instruments & patches you are using. Especially Kontakt can save huge amounts of data inside the project file.

Interesting; that all makes sense.

A lot of work I've had for the past 5-10 years has been in the "huge epic" end, for video games and action.  Consequently, you need a big arsenal of synths, orchestra, choir -- everything.

Thanks to @dterry and Bill -- will try running everything decoupled to see what the result is.  I used to work that way, but prefer to have everything saved every time; I'm often making changes to the synth settings, from triple to duple time and that kind of thing, so I prefer to have most things linked.
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