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Mixing and mastering for solo piano. Looking for help!
Last post Wed, Jun 07 2023 by Beat Kaufmann, 9 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Jun 04 2023 15:31
by beckyreesor
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2022, Ontario, Posts 2

Hello! New to this, a classical pianist gone digital. I'm producing an original piano album with the VSL Yamaha CFX Standard, and have realized I am over my head in DIY mix and master. Screenshots of my current mix/settings are attached.

Question:

1. What are any recommended resources for learning how to mix and master solo piano?

2. Or, is there anyone who'd be open to chatting with me about this to get me on the right track?

In reality, I'd love to simply hire someone to do a professional job for me. I'm not finding it easy to find someone to do this with midi! 

Here is my music if helpful: https://on.soundcloud.com/71g2W

Thanks so much!

Becky

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beckyreesor
Posted on Mon, Jun 05 2023 12:46
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1804

The good news is that VSL has taken everything off your hands to record the grand piano of your choice in the best possible quality (mastered so to say).
Furthermore, VSL provides you with various presets to choose the sound you like best with your piano.
Since you don't have an orchestra or other instruments, you don't have to adjust the grand piano sound to those other instruments. Easy!

Then it's just a matter of A) finding the right volume, B) possibly limiting the dynamics a bit and C) possibly optimizing the overall sound a bit (adapting it to your taste).
A) may depend on whether your music is in competition with other pieces - maybe even from other competitors...? Or it depends on how you want to publish your music.

B) C) are, as I said, just a matter of taste. B) for a solo piano without other instruments, the dynamics may remain uncompressed. If you want your music to be heard while driving a car or listening it in a train, I would increase the quiet tones a bit (NewYork compression).
----------------------------------

So what could mastering mean in your case?
Perhaps it would make sense to look for piano music that you particularly like in sound. Then "mastering" could mean getting as close as possible to this reference (sonically speaking).  
-----------------------------------

Then there is a so-called technical mastering. This involves making sure your music files are technically OK. Remove rumble, channel balance OK, remove unwanted noise, pause about 2 seconds before the music starts, make the file length so that the fade out is not cut off, max amplitude about -0.7dB... such things...

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, Jun 05 2023 13:51
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2900

Hello Beat

Very interesting.

Do you also have recommendation when you mix a full orchestra using MIR PRO 3D

Best Regards

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" 64gb 4TB + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 + S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO 3D, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind, Brass, Percussion Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs, Many Sychron Instruments

Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 3, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa, Kinetic libs, EW libs

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Jun 05 2023 20:21
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1804

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc Go to Quoted Post

...Do you also have recommendation when you mix a full orchestra using MIR PRO 3D

Best Regards

Cyril

Hello Cyril
While "mastering" used to be necessary in record times, mainly to comply with physical necessities so that the pickup needle did not fly out of the groove or get too hot, mastering today usually has a different task.
In some music genres it's about giving music enough volume and power, in other genres it's more about getting the last bit of quality out. The latter is probably more true for classically oriented or film music. Also, the line between mixing and mastering is not so clear-cut.


As I mentioned above, the technical mastering - that is, that a track is audio-technically in order and also in the desired format - can be done well by yourself if you have the appropriate software.
The audio fine-tuning is on the one hand a question of taste, or the perfect approach to a reference, as mentioned above. If it is only a matter of fine tuning, then the mix should already be perfect on the one hand, and of course also the monitoring system, so that the right decisions can be made.

So for the hobby sample mixer, "self-mastering" could mean getting as close as possible to the sound of a reference with real recordings that are relatively similar to your own music.
Switching back and forth between one's own mix and the reference, one notices relatively quickly whether one has achieved a similar sound, or whether one is perhaps even completely off the mark.
I can only recommend this step of comparison to every "mixer", because one of the main mistakes of many hobby mixers is that they turn the "knobs" of the effects too much and often too strongly, although the sample manufacturers actually make a lot of effort to offer a good sound by default.
This "turning of the knobs" usually results in even more "turning of the knobs" elsewhere. So mixes can get completely out of hand without you noticing. The above-mentioned comparison then quickly shows whether you are on the right track or whether you should perhaps start again from scratch with the mix. This recipe applies whether you work without or with MIR. Even with MIR and its many setting options, you can still end up on the wrong side. Comparison shows it!

So the track is not yet mastered but at least well mixed and thus a good starting point for further optimization - if desired..

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Jun 06 2023 05:50
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2900

Hello Beat,

Many thanks for your answer.

What do you think of my idea of mixing a song with a full VSL VI orchestra + drums and singers.

I mix using MIR PRO 3 D
I set the volume at 0db in MIR 

Each desk is send to a separate bus 

I mix each desk separately in Logic
If I do not use a VSL instrument I use Logic's EQ and Compressor
Then I mix the desk all together 
Do you mix with earphones ?

Best

 

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" 64gb 4TB + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 + S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO 3D, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind, Brass, Percussion Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs, Many Sychron Instruments

Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 3, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa, Kinetic libs, EW libs

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Tue, Jun 06 2023 07:32
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1804

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc Go to Quoted Post

Hello Beat,

Many thanks for your answer.

What do you think of my idea of mixing a song with a full VSL VI orchestra + drums and singers.

I mix using MIR PRO 3 D
I set the volume at 0db in MIR 

Each desk is send to a separate bus 

I mix each desk separately in Logic
If I do not use a VSL instrument I use Logic's EQ and Compressor
Then I mix the desk all together 
Do you mix with earphones ?

Best

Cyril

Hello Cyril

It does not matter how you arrive at a final result. It is always the result that counts.

A) For larger projects it makes sense to know from the very beginning where on the virtual stage individual sections will play. Create a sketch and try to reach the planed positions acoustically

B) So that everything plays under one roof in the end, I would personally only work with room depths during the entire mixes and always switch off the reverb tails everywhere.
Only during the big mix of all tracks and stems would I put a single tail over everything - just as you want it.
This helps to glue all the individual mixes together.
------------------------------------------

I do a lot of work in the headset. All the positioning of instruments (the implementation of the stage plan) and the final mix I usually do through the monitors. This gives me more reliable results than using the headphones.
Of course, you need a good monitoring situation to be able to work in this way.

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Jun 07 2023 01:49
by beckyreesor
Joined on Thu, Jun 30 2022, Ontario, Posts 2

Thanks for the input here! Especially calling out that normally too big of adjustments are made, and really the presets are already excellent.

For anyone who's interested:

I took this, and compared the two presets I was drawn to but not convinced by for my particular music, the intimate and ambient settings. Then I identified what was it I didn'T like. I basically wanted the space of the ambient but found it too spacey, and wanted the close feeling of the intimate. But the intimate itself felt too bare and muted. So... perhaps this is a HUGE FAUX PAS, but I did it anyway. I took the settings from the intimate setting and applied them to the ambient setting... and voila, I liked the sound. I've settled on that for my collection.

Cheers!

beckyreesor
Posted on Wed, Jun 07 2023 06:49
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2900

Originally Posted by: Beat Kaufmann Go to Quoted Post

Hello Cyril

It does not matter how you arrive at a final result. It is always the result that counts.

A) For larger projects it makes sense to know from the very beginning where on the virtual stage individual sections will play. Create a sketch and try to reach the planed positions acoustically

B) So that everything plays under one roof in the end, I would personally only work with room depths during the entire mixes and always switch off the reverb tails everywhere.
Only during the big mix of all tracks and stems would I put a single tail over everything - just as you want it.
This helps to glue all the individual mixes together.
------------------------------------------

I do a lot of work in the headset. All the positioning of instruments (the implementation of the stage plan) and the final mix I usually do through the monitors. This gives me more reliable results than using the headphones.
Of course, you need a good monitoring situation to be able to work in this way.

Beat

Hello Beat,

Thanks for your answer

I am a bit lost with your answer ; MIR PRO does the room placement and the reverb of each instruments ; Don't you use MIR PRO ?

Best Regards

Cyril

MacBook Pro 2019 16" 64gb 4TB + 2 x Odisseey G9 49"

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd

Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 + S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro
Synth : many....
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO 3D, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind, Brass, Percussion Complete, Dimension Brass, Big Band Orchestra series, Many Synchronised libs, Many Sychron Instruments

Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra 3, Art Conductor, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa, Kinetic libs, EW libs

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Jun 07 2023 09:21
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1804

Originally Posted by: Cyril Blanc Go to Quoted Post

Hello Beat,

Thanks for your answer

I am a bit lost with your answer ; MIR PRO does the room placement and the reverb of each instruments ; Don't you use MIR PRO ?

Best Regards

Cyril

Hello Cyrill

No, I do not use MIR Pro. The new Synchron Libraries, let you create any depth of space with the different microphones through different combinations. This fact makes tools like MIR no longer necessary. In addition, I do not particularly like the sonic results of MIR. Since I can always create mixes myself as I wish, I do not depend on the great mixing comfort that MIR undoubtedly offers.

Regarding "only room depth without reverb tail" when mixing with MIR:
You can be very careful in MIR not to have too much reverb tail, so especially only room depth. Don't use MIRacle with your "part-projects" and don't set the reverb time too long for the microphone positions used, so that everything sounds relatively dry, despite greater room depths.
Finally, over everything, glue the "reverb tail" together - this is a good concept for large and complex mixes with many instruments.


All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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