Bill this is wonderfully produced! And from memory!!...

Anand: You took me back... I rememebr buying the vinyl of that violin concerto back in the late '80s if I remember right. I was barely a student and in awe of Williams' filmic achievements, so I was surprised when I heard that kind of music coming from his pen, but not totally boggled as I was familiar with much stranger music by living composers at that time, and Williams was in his mid-40s when he composed that in the '70s, at the time when Modernism was only beginning to relax its stranglehold on the neck of 'serious' music. The piece is not atonal of course, it vacillates between Berg, Bartok, Prokofiev and others, and tonal centres are hard to pinpoint without a score (for me at least). Did you notice towards the end of the third movement how the work shifts to the Williams of the big screen?

From his concerti that I have heard -about four or five- I prefer the Violoncello Concerto, which comes on a CD of his cello and orchestra works, very atmospheric. Also, you are right in that Williams and Rozsa differ due to their generational difference. Williams is a child of post-modernism, where the palette was expanded considerably in all respects. Pity you didn't get to shake hands after that B.S.O. concert...

Jasen: Well, madness certainly goes with the territory. Hopefully, depression is only transitory. I had read quite a bit of Nietzsche in my youth, always a favourite, and I actually appreciate his last period, even with madness having set in (see in Ecce Homo chapter titles like 'Why I am a Destiny', or 'Why I Write Such Great Books' - beautiful stuff!). Beethoven however, let's just say he grew more and more eccentric, having been driven there partly by the imposed solitude of deafness that paralyzed his concert career. The difficulties in his music were surmounted early enough in the 19th century with the advent of virtuoso-playing, a consequence of his creative life and endeavours mostly.

I am not a Kubrick expert, but I submit to everyone's admiration. I suppose I was too young to appreciate Barry Lyndon and The Shining when I caught them on TV and wasn't terribly impressed, but I was very impressed by 2001 -both as a young man and today- as well as with Dr. Strangelove and Eyes Wide Shut. Not so much by Full Metal Jacket, but that may have been due to the genre and that I am not American.

Jung I haven't read, but I imagine the Red Book would be very relevant to this thread  As for my recent voracious reading, I can recommend Marcus Aurelius' Meditations that I read a couple of months ago. Sublime!

And regarding composers that dabbled both in film and concert music - especially concerti, you might enjoy William Walton's Viola Concerto, Alan Rawsthorne's two piano concerti, actually I just realized the list would be enormous so I'll leave it there.

Thanks for the link Anand! As with the piano concerto, I wasn't aware of this remarkable work! The only concertante piece I knew of Rozsa's was the so-called Spellbound concerto which, impressed as I was with the soundtrack, that was a film based concertino really (there are a few in that genre), nothing like what Anand and I posted here; fully fledged concert music. And what spellbinding music this violin concerto is! And what a great 2nd movement. When it started I thought it would be lyrical, but -film composer à propos- it was as dramatic as the 1st. The 3rd movement is what you'd expect from a Hungarian. I would say the whole work at least on par with Korngold's, but these are personal preferences of course.

So I looked Rozsa over and he apparently wrote a cello concerto that Piatigorsky performed! These are concert credits that very-very few composers can boast.

Overall, great music for mad or depressed minds guys, but not lobotomized ones (we know the right music for those...)

Trying and almost failing to cope with unmitigated madness and uncertainty recently, I've been listening to a lot of music and reading a lot of books. I happened upon this rarity amongst everything else and thought to share it here.

For the uninitiated, this is what a professional orchestral (film) composer should be capable of technically - if not in quantity of talent.

Try and compose the following with 'layers', 'arpeggiators', and 'inspiration patches':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S64OtXn80FU 

One of your better ones and that's saying something. Very crisp and totally evocative/cinematic, It could hypothetically adorn some big war Hollywood production with powerful heroic, as well as dark contemplative scenes!

Alas, no ostinati...

Very poignant and sorrowful Bill. I do hope some players will pick this up and make a live recording that I will be very happy to hear!

I have to say that the violin sequencing is fantastic, but the piano sounds quite "tinny" to me (for your great standards of simulation).

Best of luck with this great piece.

This movement is one of the more tasteful marriages of electronic sounds with (what could be) acoustic instruments, that I know. I also enjoyed the natural, unforced rhythmic structures of the movement. I have to say that the finale seems more appropriate for a middle movement -say a scherzo- rather than of a whole symphony to me, but overall, congratulations!

I suppose I have been in a rather foul mood since I've had major troubles with my work computer for a while now... Happy composing to the rest of you.

Thanks for the appreciation of my composer's moderate madness Jasen, I too appreciate your presence here (as well as Bill's), but I do visit the forum less and less. It's a combination of growing in years, and that the non-technical threads (subjects/comments/music) just hold no interest for me compared to those of years past. Also, the P.C. nannies bawling for moderation at the slightest provocation (as they perceive it) have withered any pleasure I have ever derived through this participation.

There are great musicians to be counted amongst fellow members here, but it only takes a few unimaginative and persistent mouse-riders to spoil the broth. I am neither going to futilely stand in the way, or be compelled to praise intellectual and musical unworthiness of the tsunamian onslaught of the vapid and the fatuous. 

Small Shiny Objects... I take it it is a Musikalische Opfer by Jasen to all ladies around the world. I like the interchangeable independent lines, as well as the motley, punctuating drum kit that doesn't belong - sort of like the trumpet in The Unanswered Question, that is the most interesting bit in my view.

Insofar as the "forum dying", well, being one of the old guard here and having partaken of its peak, if it is actually dying, it does so after a very long fight with degradation in many respects - a natural death when one considers the general global musical conditions, and mostly... Actually I am not going to start a fire here as I usually do. a) It is my friend Jasen's thread, and b) I doubt it is worthwhile anymore.

P.S.: Jasen, I don't know whether the piece would benefit from a little more spacing out the stereo image. Unless your intention was to snuggle the instruments together.

Very aptly evocative of the title. A lot of people name their compositions irrespectively to their musical content, so even if the music is good it suffers somewhat by an incongruous title. I like the use of the Wagner tubas in this way, most people would have scored this for horns and trombones.

Originally Posted by: William

"As Hanz Zimmer once said, composers are no longer just writing music, they must be sound engineers too."

Yeah, doing what J.S.Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler did is just not sufficient anymore.  

Well I'm sure Hans was referring to film -not concert- composers, and in that case he is of course absolutely right about 99.999% of today's practitioners; which is exactly why film scores today sound like engineers compose them instead of musicians. John Williams must really feel inadequate, poor guy...

Happy 2019, hopefully the wise men will all bring better aesthetics this coming year, we have enough of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, thank you.

Just making sure; isn't VI Pro going to be part of the Black Friday Deals?

Tηe period of 25 years picked by Rick Beato is more or less the period when everything musical has turned to excrement, and it certainly also applies to film music and musical theatre (excepting the old guys still composing and very few other efforts).

I don't know whether I can be as charitable as Beato regarding the quality of the songwriters who are allegedly repressed by radio executives. If you are a good composer you will still write the great songs once you have written the first 2-3 stinkers in order to get recognition. I haven't heard many, so... Although I admit I am not on top of the pop charts like I was more than 25 years ago.

In film however, and although it is the illiterate and uncultured directors and producers who encourage the pure methane 'Epic' sound, the almost always out-of-context eastern vocalises, the out-of-tune piano and glocks in horror (yes, great ideas when first used, lazy clichés now), the "composers" themselves could not write any other music if so instructed, being themselves illiterate and uncultured - as opposed to the pop artists Beato claims to be capable.

I will also add that those four chords in the video have resulted in many really inspired songs in the distant past. I cannot say the same for soundtracks that have obviously been computer-"assisted" - I say generated (arpeggiators, copy-paste computer patterns, ready-made "inspiration(!)" patches, etc.). Not one!

Dumbing down the naturally entropic human race is easy. Raising its standards was hard. Executives facilitating this sepsis have incinerated centuries of careful cultivation with the lightning speed that technology allows for today.

Williams, Morricone, Elfman: Go join the dead ones, eat the dust of the mouse-cavalry...

Precisely what thread was that?!

Unless this was a discussion regarding programming exclusively, so I would not feel confident enough to participate in my usual collegial and supportive manner, due to my self-knowledge that I don't belong in the top echelon of that category - unlike others here...

This features the habitual unorthodox - and personal - scoring of yours Jerry, it is a magnificently understated movement, of great sensitivity and harmonic thought. I agree with Bill regarding the plainchant character of the piece. Bravo!

Having read insightful posts here, like Bill's and Jasen's (I like the Adam Smith reference), and others', I am thankful I am not the only one having these thoughts about VSL's new direction. I have to admit that it is the last of the major 'Houses' that is moving to cater to the 'Inept' market, but I have to be thankful for all the wonderful products they have created thus far that literally changed our creative lives, and hope they don't stop!

But I can't help laughing silly at the ending of that Synchron FX video where the guy says "...so that you can create YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound..." 

When the choir is large - especially this large - it begs for the opportunity to subdivide the voices (ex. High sopranos, mezzos, altos high and low, tenors, baritones, basses, and then divisi within those). It all depends on your compositional ability/technique, and style of music (modern, challenging, mostly polyphonic or homophonic, etc.) since a choir of some dimensions probably includes a lot of amateurs? Also, is it a capella? That is also a major issue.

I am starting to look at Dorico seriously now myself (Sibelius user since Sibelius 2), but I haven't seen a video yet where one is working full page score on Dorico. All these note values, articulations and whatnot surrounding the manuscript are visual impairments and distractions to the composer (i.e. gets tired much faster). Could it be they really can't take the Engraver mindset out of their design? 

Or, I don't know what I'm talking about and there is a way to work as I suggested...

I have to make my mind up within a week, so thank you for chiming in Paolo. I'm chasing information on that pair as well, they are also discounted from a higher price. Like I said, I can't find a decent amount of headphone reviews on orchestral music studio work, unless I just don't know where to look...

Thank you for your valuable input Lars, since the pair is discounted heavily I might just opt for it. I'll wait a little more just in case someone else has another suggestion.

After about 20 years with my SONY MDR-7506 I am on the market for headphones costing ~€130. I realize that this price won't get me the ideal sound, but that is what I am going to spend since I do have actual monitors in the studio. Be that as it may, I have found that I do 90% of my work (even mixing) with  headphones.

Since out of ~100 reviews of several headphones that I went through, only one mentioned orchestral music (many more mentioned EDM quality through iPhone...), if anyone here has any ideas I'd love to have them (and in as much detail as you fancy).

Looking more warmly at the moment at the Audio-Technica ATH-M50 X, while some Sennheisers and AKG also look interesting.

Thanks in advance for any input.                                        

How do we actually get notifications for post-responses? I only get an e-mail when I have a PM waiting...

I came back here to "improve" on my 'from-the-hip' post, but too late... In any case:

As far as the "in my league" comment: Apart from not seeing the humour in the riposte, you're the one that declared twice you don't want to be in my (lowly) programming-company. When I tell you that you are not, you actually complain?! How exactly did you diagnose the 'stick' and the arrogance when I was the first to admit that I am not a good programmer (certainly not in your company...). It is a very sophisticated skill, and only a few in the world possess it to a level high enough to at least atempt to compare their outputs with those of live performers. Where did you actually detect a hint of arrogance on my part?

Maybe it is you that needs help getting off that giant Trojan horse, where you are unable to accept that there could be somebody in the universe not dazzled by your programming skills. You keep repeating, with breathtaking insecurity I might add, that there are so many others here and elsewhere that have congratulated you on your mix. And?? Are you trying to change my mind with that statement? Do you think there would be plenty that -even when "hiding behind a keyboard"- would tell you they weren't too impressed? My comments were not meant as an affront Dave. I have already repeated that I said I felt your programming to be inferior (not bad or awful) as to not be good enough for a comparison with live players, and you got offended by that... You'll just have to live with my believing your mix to be sub-par. And you will, for a) I'm sure that you don't care what I have to say, and b) it seems that my solitary opinion is drowned in an ocean of unqualified praise. So why don't you take the initiative and contact the VSL, they actually have a huge library of classically oriented demos, they don't just cater to Hans-clones.

You are right in one thing, my social skills do create problems for me, I have a loose tongue and I abhor political correctness. You are wrong in that other thing, that you prefer to surround yourself with "earthly beings" that are positive, inspiring, and supportive. Surrounding yourself with such people in your life -family and social circles- is a must (I try to as well). Proffering your music and demand that people mandatorily respond to it with cotton balls is ill-considered. If you are confident about the MIDI quality of your work, so be it. I am equally as confident about it. I don't understand your hysteria about this. I certainly didn't call you names like you implied people call me, and never called you arrogant for your insistence that you are a fair programmer. Is it impossible for you to compute that somebody might think you are not (and be wrong)? Or is it that he says it publicly that bothers you (subsequent to you having offered your work for public comment)?

To refer to the original topic, if we are performers as well, then (as with instrumental performers) we are not all at the same level of artistry.

I'll be thankful for any financial assistance you may afford me regarding the removal of the stick ailing me -it is a procedure that I won't deny I sometimes am in need of (as many artists have been before me)- perhaps we can both book with the same physician?

Dave: When you post your work on the 'Orchestration - Composition - Instruments' category in this forum, whether specifically or by inference you are soliciting comments and opinions. I have noticed there are quite a few half-wits here (not you), that do the above only in order to get enthusiastic responses from fellow forum members, and bellyache the moment someone expresses dislike (let alone hate) towards their work. Id est, unacceptably childish behaviour... That is the main reason I usually refrain from commenting on people's pieces on the forum, unless I have something positive to say. 

[General comment: Just to be clear, and for what it's worth of course, I don't listen to everything here so if I haven't commented on your work it doesn't necessarily mean I disliked it]

Now about me not commenting on the actual thread you opened about the trio: So what?!?!?! I wasn't planning to contribute anything further on this discussion (even on this thread), but William e-mailed me that he had written something here(!) about my earlier post, I read it and proceeded to respond here.

My mentioning your piece was merely a side-note in the whole diatribe (I tend to ramble as you may have noticed). I never intended to post in your thread, for the reason that I felt it was not worth the posting. Why, you ask? Because I felt it was an unfair comparison between the VSL and your live performers, since your electronic simulation of the work was really unconvincing! Yes, due to inferior programming! Why are you offended?.. Do you believe yourself to be a great programmer of samples? Have you listened to Jay Bacal's work? Guy Bacos'? Alexandre Temple's? Mike Verta's? William Kersten's? And a host of others... Sampled performances are fraught with unrealistic aspects (especially solo strings - and exposed solo strings at that) that we have to mask in simulations. In fact, that is where the whole art of programming lies. Why is it offensive to be told that you have a long way to go in that department? I said 'inferior' programming (compared to the above gentlemen), not 'bad'/'puerile' programming. "Disparaging"? Well that's what it sounded like to my not so inexperienced ears. "It's easy to criticize other persons' work, isn't it?" I suppose it is. As easy as it was for those that gave favourable comments, and I am certain you would not have asked me this question had I also responded positively. You don't think that would also have been easy for me? You're right, I have chosen not to post tracks here, mainly because I am self-conscious about my programming (not my composition!), but it's a free forum. You go ahead and post to your heart's content, I promise you I will never henceforth refer to your efforts on any thread. We will continue having philosophical discussions instead.

Lastly, you don't want to be in "my company"/league? Don't worry; you aren't.

Anand: Thank you very much for jumping in before I had a chance. It is never my intention to offend or hurt anybody unless they are obnoxious (and Dave isn't), but that's just how I felt about the programming effort and the whole thread. If Dave is that great as a programmer, I'm sure VSL-management are already contracting him as an in-house composer/simulator (like Guy).

Bill: I said the sampled performance sounded fake. Obvously the samples are very real, and greatly recorded (the '80s samples also were real).