P.S.: I am not writing this to provoke further discussion, as welcome as it would be, I wasn't planning this, but I just happened upon the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4xuCY2k0lE

Basically, all the Oscars for music 2000-2020 in one short video. Some good ones, many repulsively politically #motivated, but in any case so great that there was no chance for any of the soundtracks of the first three Harry Potter films or the three Star Wars prequels... And on a couple of those occasions, I would personally have presented the award to Hans, compared to...

Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion and offered their considered viewpoints, one always benefits from learning something new - I, for example, was unaware of VapidComposer...

Observing the international cultural milieu and the denizens' "musical" preferences in the 21st century, I am so genuinely and happily surprised that the entertainment industry still elects to employ symphonic forces for its films and games, albeit in the puerile manner explored in this thread. So long as the industry keeps sustaining all those musicians and recording studios, we -others- will continue to enjoy the great benefits of the development of great sample libraries and sophisticated notation/recording software, that allows us to compose and record our own work. 

And who knows? Even against great odds, we can still harbour statistical hope for the future.

Macker: I appreciate the cheer!

fatis12_24918: I see. Be that as it may, I am not wrong in what I said in the context I established, I believe. As far as the anthropological/neuroscientific studies are concerned, I agree that the more basic the musical element, the more common it will be cross-culturally (much like the ring vs. the brutal noise). The same could be said of phonemes. Vowel cries on their own are probably shared amongst people on all continents. And then, as language/musical language develops into more sophisticated expression, we notice significant differentiation across cultures - for example, you mentioned melodic culture. It is because we were talking about orchestral music, I thought you meant instrumental timbres/colours as your second element and that's probably where the misunderstanding occurred, as this aspect of orchestral writing is one of the more recent developments, i.e. a more recent rung in music's evolutionary ladder.

Insofar as Orkestral music is concerned, since it has chronologically "developed" after the most sophisticated orchestral possibilities (let alone form, harmony, polyphony, etc.) had been invented, its primitivistic features are not merely a step back, but leaps back. Hence, logic dictates that if it is true that people prefer Ork music to Debussy or Stravinsky, it is because their musical cognition and appreciation stems (pun intended) from a chronologically much earlier stage of mental/chromosomal development. We -as a symphonic culture- have planted our flags on the highest peaks. Are we to compromise and sit on mole hills, simply because this kind of orchestral writing is more "inclusive", as everyone and a trained monkey are capable of such tripe?

Back again.

I would like to discuss a few points, cued by some things that were said here.

First of all, does somebody's expression in literature, music, painting, architecture, etc. qualify as high art, merely from the effect it has on the eye or ear of the beholder? Not really... It can qualify as a preference of the beholder (intimating his tastes), but not as a consensus. Now, what if a devastating number of people subjected to that somebody's expression, world wide, agreed that it indeed qualified as a product of high art? Again, not enough. One would have to review what other works these people also consider as high art. If Bieber is mentioned...

Can we make an, as objective as possible, pronouncement regarding this 'so-called' Epic school, as an artistically valid type of orchestral composition? We certainly can:

This type of orchestral composition is exclusively utilised as background scoring for film and video games. There is no way that any orchestra of any note will perform such a work, unless it already exists as a score to something... No one will ever commission orchestral music of this type for its own sake (for a symphony, concerto, opera, ballet, you name it), and I don't know of any 'serious' composer that belongs to this "school" of orchestral writing. Conversely, I know of 'Minimalists', 'Spectralists', 'Neo-romantics', 'Free-atonalists', etc. Enough said. This kind of "music" is dim, and its composeurs are a joke outside of Hollywood, BBC, and Playstation.

Let's now eliminate all other types of orchestral composition and concentrate exclusively on media music and why, Hollywood for example, propagates this kind of symphonic refuse. Is it,

a) Because people like it? Not necessarily. People did not have any problems with the likes of Williams, Shore, Barry, Goldsmith, etc. before this kind of orchestral bile rose inside Hollywood's oesophagus. People are mostly there for the movie. They'll like pretty much anything although, other than Hans, I haven't seen much veneration for any other such composter, comparable to that which say Morricone enjoyed,

b) Because this kind of score suits a particular kind of movie (or game)? Again, no. This monotonous, lobotomous, layered crap has been employed in most genres: Action, Thriller, Suspense, Adventure, etc. I refer everybody to the aforementioned names. They scored such films a lot better, a lot deeper - with real layers,

c) Is it because this kind of music costs less to produce, so in effect it is the product of financial considerations? I am not an expert, but I don't see how this kind of orchestral claptrap is cheaper to record with an orchestra than any other score; and if it is, I have never read it from anyone in recently published books, or relevant YouTube interviews.

So what's the reason for this music's use then, if it's absolute crap and no cheaper than a proper score?

I won't go into that, but I'll just say that music is not the only aspect of film making that has gone down the public toilet. Compare the Star Wars of the '70s to today's as an example. Compare re-makes, etc.

Anand mentioned Jim Morrison. Who is the last 30 years' Jim Morrison, Paul McCartney, Billy Joel, Roger Waters, Benny Andersson, Freddie Mercury, Elton John, Phil Collins, Jeff Lynne, Barry Gibb, Roger Hodgson, Mark Knopfler, Eric Woolfson, name your own... Anybody comes even near?

Back to the software. fatis12_24918 said the pyramid is based on rhythm, then timbral colours, then melody, then harmony and finally counterpoint. This only applies of course to this Trailer park "music" this software facilitates. Music, in the western world at least (and orchestral music was born there), began with melody/rhythm (we'll never know which came first), then counterpoint, then harmony, and finally timbre. And it was always sophisticated; as sophisticated as it could be at any time. 

Finally, the orchestra is an instrument in itself. It has developed from the chamber ensembles of the past, to the Classical orchestra, then the Romantics added size and instruments, and so did the Modernists in the 20th century. Its constituent instruments have developed and changed over time from their original forms, much like the development of the piano. 

How one composes for this 'instrument' does not depend on the 'instrument'. It is capable of Mozart's 40th, as it is of Lutoslawski's 3rd. Capable of Captain Blood, as it is of Superman (1978). Sadly, it is also capable of Man of Steel (2013).

The instrument does not make you a composer - any instrument. It will however reflect the composer you are, according to how you write for it. And remember: Technique is not a matter of taste, or opinion.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918

 Well... in case one is customer of both the companies (as I am) and one want to make some nice comparison, the Ork-estrator is a lot of fun: it drives MIDI channels to VEP and you may play a full VSL Orchestra with it!

I'm also a customer of both companies (Symphonic Choirs - since nobody else will release a fully "phoneticizable" choir). Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying the Orkestrator engine will play VSL instruments through VEP? That is, the Orkestrator will apply its patterns and settings onto other libraries' sounds? I don't get the 'as-it-is' in your post.

Originally Posted by: Macker

Lolol, I'm willing to bet that our chum the dronemeister narcissist doesn't waste a second of his valuable time listening to stuff by unknown hopefuls.

I agree, but I'm sure he hears a lot of current film scores and those are pretty much Hollywood Orkestrated. Just last night I saw the 2016 remake of The Magnificent Seven. They saved Bernstein's theme for the end credits. So, the credits were rolling as a new recording of the original theme was played, at the end of which the new, step-sequenced score took over. The juxtaposition/comparison was so jarring that I'd hate to have been this recent film's composer, despite what must have been a financially lucrative contract.

I mention this as an initial comment to your story about Sony's London offices and their garbage bins for CDs. I remember an interview with a studio executive in charge of music in Hollywood (I do not remember which studios). His desk was stockpiled with demo CDs, end-to-end, about 30 to a pile. He pointed at them saying they represented merely that particular day's deliveries (he had received just as many previously and was expecting the same the following day). How was he expected to examine them all? Answer he gave: He couldn't and he wouldn't. The vast majority would be thrown away. There was no return policy and no allocated space for the CDs in the studios' premises.

As far as grabbing producers' and directors' attention within the first few seconds, I must say that I have no idea what is expected these days. My favourite weighty, powerful, arresting opening of all times is that of Brahms' Symphony N.1. I would say Beethoven's 5th and Sibelius' 4th are not far behind, followed by Petrushka, Carmina Burana, Keqrops, Ein Heldenleben, and many others in no particular order of course and, if amplitude is not a factor, who can ignore the haunting openings of Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto, Music for Strings Percussion and Celeste, Ligeti's Requiem, etc., etc. Would these openings impress the average filmmaker these days? I wish...

And if I have my take on film scores for those arresting first few seconds, would Citizen Kane, North by Northwest, or Vertigo cut it today? I very much doubt it. Maybe Star Wars - A New Hope or Star Trek - The Motion Picture. Maybe... I think they are by now conditioned to only tune in to Trailer (park) / Epic patches and layers.

I know! The next big thing for sample library companies will be 'Openings' (pity 'Big Bang' is already taken...): "In these times of the Clone Wars, you have to impress the filmmakers instantly if you're going to have any chance of securing a contract. 'Openings' is a brand new library, and a fast and sure way of grabbing a director's elusive ear. We have created tons of inspiration patches, lasting anywhere between 4-10 seconds, that will suit all kinds and styles of contemporary cinema. Just select from the Menu - Action, Adventure, Horror, Suspense, Thriller, etc., and the appropriate directory of our headphone-tearing, mind-numbing WAVs will allow you (and countless others) to select the perfect musical introduction that will compel any filmmaker to hear the complete track. Stay tuned, in the next few months we'll be releasing 'Middles' and 'Endings', to complement this release and the complete sham that is commercial film-music composition today.

Taikos are an important omission which, overwhelmed as I was with the demonstration, did not register in my mind at the time - surprisingly, as I just adore Taikos and their habitual, tasteful use in original film scores.

And another thing. How many more sets of microphones and controllers thereof are we still expecting in the future? This competition among sound library companies regarding microphonal opulence... How much farther can it go? And how much farther can this obsession with orchestral verisimilitude go before even one person bothers to be as judgemental about the quality of the actual music that is channeled through all these plug-ins and filters and sends and returns and dithers and whatnot?

I bet even Hans is vomiting by this time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlQ65mzKkI&t=3s

Strictly for highly skilled connoisseurs of the art of orchestral writing and rare talents out there who simply refuse to compromise on original thinking (examples as to the latter at 7:13 onwards).

P.S.: As a brand new product, it's not perfected yet. You still have to come up with the chords (sigh). I'm certain version 2.zero is in the works.

Thank you for this offering Bill, maniacal indeed... It's interesting that I also have a work titled thusly, for wind quartet.

Merry Christmas everybody, and all the best for the impending new year. Hopefully, COVID -and inspiration patches- free! (I know, I know I'm asking for too much. Given a choice, I'll suffer the spread of COVID over the patches).

Hello everyone!

I am so very rarely on the forum these days, I somehow ended up here, probably through registering Anand's invocation subconsciously.

My reaction to the subject forwarded is "How can one do so little with so very much (equipment)?!", and the opposite goes for John Williams (who needs none).

I also dug up my favourite video of the drone guru expatiating on his profound understanding of tertian harmony. Unfortunately, but understandably, the video has since become 'private'. I post the URL here for your viewing pleasure, in case you manage to hack through (it's worth it!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bIkPdcqr5k

x

What a tour de force Bill, congratulations! I very much enjoyed getting lost in your musings and abstractions. The music was of course the main guide as to emotional content, even more so than the protagonist's panting or crying. I found the isolation and schizophrenia cogently depicted, and the juxtaposition of a B&W reality against the variegated spectral dimension beautifully realised. My favourite parts were the girl's peregrinations through the painting's deserted, quasi-classical town.

This must have taken a considerably long time to create, along with the extensive and impressive score, but I feel it was worth it, for us the audience at the very least. You even got the authorities to participate!

Very-very well done! Looking forward to the next one of course. When is it coming?

Originally Posted by: jasensmith

When it comes to innovation in film scoring people think no further than Herrmann but, as Errik pointed out, Morricone could also conjure some magic with shoestring budgets.

True! It would behove film-music aspirers to spend a few months researching European cinema (of yesteryears preferably), and discover really inspired music that isn't an orchestra making the biggest noise it possibly can. Don't forget fanboys, when Hans was asked to name his favourite composers, the first one he named was Morricone, and he went from there. He certainly didn't name any of his cheap imitators.

I had congratulated Bill privately on this film, but I believe it merits a 'bump' on the forum, as well as a public appreciation for this wonderful creation. Very warm atmosphere and colours (at an age when most people do grey for some reason), great imagery and visual concepts!

Please do more!

I prefer this version - did the tempo really change?

Anyway, if you want to take this further now - in my opinion, you should add a little more counterpoint on the guitar starting on the second verse. Not too much, just a tad, and it should be on the higher strings to complement the flute's octave jump. It basically gives the guitar more area to cover.

Thanks for this.

A little slow, but fine if heard as a eulogy. I liked it, I only I found the sudden top note a little out of place. I would drop it down an octave and place the very last phrase at the bottom register of the flute.

Morricone's music on the whole is better known to us, Europeans, and film enthusiasts who do not limit themselves to Hollywood productions. Many are ignorant of the staggering amount of great scores by this man, where budgets were penurious (compared to those in L.A.), but inspiration bountiful!

Many are under the impression that the first Leone western -Fistful of Dollars- was scored the way it was due to aesthetic considerations, but that is only a fraction of the truth. In reality, the budget for music was so low, that Morricone had to make do with the whips and the wolf-calls (as opposed to some other economical solution, due to Leone's preference for an unrelated song arrangement by the composer). By the second and third movies, the surprisingly successful musical canvas had been set. 

Oh yeah!!

The last, and for me the greatest film-melodist, has passed. Sadly, he outlived the time when melodic - or great leitmotivic - writing was mandatory in the top echelon of the profession. Devoid of this ability, one could still serve coffee in the studio.

This insignificant farewell, and gratitude for the numerous masterpieces he bequeathed us, I offer as a post scriptum to my previous thread regarding the septic noise that has expropriated such fine music for the last how many decades.

Addio Maestro!

UPDATE: And, of course, throngs of composters have labeled the organiser's exaggeratedly kind and magnanimous advice to the useless as a 'tirade' and a 'rant', and have congested his video with vituperative posts and accusations. 

If only he had read his Bible - "Do not cast your pearls..."

Serves him right for not having held the contest with my requirements.

Hybrid entries were eligible, in fact the winning one was such a score.

Jasen: I would give them made up names but only if I was confident they couldn't discern the music was not recorded with samples. Otherwise, goodbye credibility - if you care for yours with them that is.

Everybody: It's amazing! I've been vindicated! Even one of the organisers of the competition has made a video about the brain-quashing indistinguishability and interchangeability of the entries. Even he felt frustrated enough to do this. Of course he is very nice about it - because he is a nice guy, and he desperately tries in his best way to tell everybody that they are going nowhere by being absolute, unadulterated apes of already bad music (my words of course). He says it more like "Everybody's music was earth-shattering, of really breathtaking quality, however...", and he goes on from there...

What he doesn't understand -he really doesn't understand it, he's not just pretending- is that all these people, all these countless tidal waves of would-bes actually are incapable of writing any other way. It is not by choice they "compose" thusly, it is impossible for them to do otherwise, as any other style requires two things they do not, and will never, possess: a) Talent, b) Proper musical chops. 

If I'm wrong, arrogant, prejudiced, whatever, why don't you hold another contest but deny everyone the percussion section, pre-recorded patches, the arpeggiator, and the spiccato articulation. You do this and I will personally contribute towards the prizes!