Originally Posted by: LuCsa

[...]

I'll try to clarify my point with a more concrete example:

Let's assume I have created a VEP instance called "Basic Strings". It includes some string instruments, basic articulation matrices and standard level balancing in the VEP mixer. I now want to build a (very simple) template for string music, thus I create a VEP Server project "String Template" which will host only my "Basic Strings" VEP instance. It is the starting point of all my string music projects and at the beginning of a string music day, I load this server project and connect my DAW to it (with whatever project using this template). And of course, I can change DAW projects and reconnect as long as my template is "preserved".

BUT: What if my DAW projects demand different mixes? That is, DAW project #1 demands +6dB on 1st and 2nd violin of my "Basic Strings" VEP instance inside "String template". And DAW project #2 wants -20dB on the Violas plus a high cut at 3 kHz? How to save those changes? More importantly, how do I now switch between project #1 and #2 without reloading all samples (only the faders/processing plugins have changed). Because, understandably, if I saved two versions of the server project (one for #1, one for #2), I need to reload the correct one for the current song and then connect.

I hope my OP is clearer now - the three questions remain.

[...]

Since I am just now coming back to tinkering on my template (SSP incoming~~), I would like to bump this thread and ask if someone could shed some light on this, please. :)

Thanks and cheers,
Lukas

Hi,

thanks for your input. I'm not sure if there might be a misunderstanding.
You state that my basic assumptions are invalid (and hence my follow-up questions), but I don't quite agree. At least I don't see why they should be wrong (see direct comments below).

I'll try to clarify my point with a more concrete example:

Let's assume I have created a VEP instance called "Basic Strings". It includes some string instruments, basic articulation matrices and standard level balancing in the VEP mixer. I now want to build a (very simple) template for string music, thus I create a VEP Server project "String Template" which will host only my "Basic Strings" VEP instance. It is the starting point of all my string music projects and at the beginning of a string music day, I load this server project and connect my DAW to it (with whatever project using this template). And of course, I can change DAW projects and reconnect as long as my template is "preserved".

BUT: What if my DAW projects demand different mixes? That is, DAW project #1 demands +6dB on 1st and 2nd violin of my "Basic Strings" VEP instance inside "String template". And DAW project #2 wants -20dB on the Violas plus a high cut at 3 kHz? How to save those changes? More importantly, how do I now switch between project #1 and #2 without reloading all samples (only the faders/processing plugins have changed). Because, understandably, if I saved two versions of the server project (one for #1, one for #2), I need to reload the correct one for the current song and then connect.

I hope my OP is clearer now - the three questions remain.

Kind regards :)
Lukas

+++

Originally Posted by: civilization 3

"Now, if I want to mix my song #1 inside VEP7 (and not my DAW) and save that mix, I need to (a) save the VEP7 data into my DAW project (by "coupling" at least on the last save) or (b) save the VEP7 server project itself."

No. That is definitely not reason to couple the two, it's simply a matter of saving the VEP server project and saving the DAW project. It is not any standalone, it's just preserved (and decoupled) in order to not have it unload while you switch DAW projects, or to just close the one or quit. 

 

To my way of thinking there is no upside to coupling the two, a project will soon enough become unwieldy to save along with a DAW project, long, long save times, and this situation can become unstable.

It seems to me you are contradicting what is given in the VEP7 manual (VEP7 - preserve/decouple) in the red "caution" box at the end of the "decouple" section. (Lets take aside the performance implications of coupling at this point.) What is the reason for coupling, if not to save all VEP data inside the DAW project, to your mind?

"It is not any standalone, it's just preserved [...]" I don't understand what do you mean by that.

Originally Posted by: civilization 3

"#2 (which we assume to use the exact same set of instruments/VEP instances, i.e. the same VEP7 server project, basically), I need to either load the plugin data from the song #2 DAW project (if I followed route (a) when saving) or load the respective VEP7 project"

All you need to do is launch the DAW project while VEP sits there. I can't tell what 'plugin data from the song #2 DAW project' refers to but it's not relevant. It's a very simple matter, the two [VEP vs DAW] are separate projects which may be connected. So, "Assuming that what I stated so far is really correct," - it isn't, so the questions after that point are moot.

"I can't tell what 'plugin data from the song #2 DAW project' refers to but it's not relevant." If I open a DAW project which contains VEP data (because they were coupled at the time of saving), VEP7 server allows to load this stored data - which is what I meant to refer to.

Hi folks!

I have a (I think) quite basic question about the use of VEP7.
I'm aware that "preserve" makes VEP7 function like a standalone tool, hosting my samples, and my DAW will just connect to it. If the instance is not (!) "decoupled", VEP7 data will be saved to my DAW project. If my DAW project contains VEP7 data, it can be loaded/discarded from within VEP7.

Now, if I want to mix my song #1 inside VEP7 (and not my DAW) and save that mix, I need to (a) save the VEP7 data into my DAW project (by "coupling" at least on the last save) or (b) save the VEP7 server project itself.

However, if I then switch to a new DAW project song #2 (which we assume to use the exact same set of instruments/VEP instances, i.e. the same VEP7 server project, basically), I need to either load the plugin data from the song #2 DAW project (if I followed route (a) when saving) or load the respective VEP7 project (if I went for option (b)).

Assuming that what I stated so far is really correct, my questions are:

1. In both cases (a) and (b) all instances and thus samples are reloaded. Effectively, this means that I do need to reload my template every time I switch songs when mixing in VEP7. If I want to prevent this, I need to mix in the DAW and make no changes in the VEP7 server project that are unique to the current song. Is this correct?
2. If 1) is correct: What is the recommended way to use VEP7 as a host and mixer while keeping loading processes at a minimum?
3. If I want to load my template only once in the beginning and flexibly change between DAW projects, do I need to mix in the DAW? In other words: Should I perform mixing steps that are on a "template level" (balance, basic EQs/processing, etc.) in VEP7 and mixing steps that are unique to each individual project ("project/song level") inside the DAW?

Thank you for your insights!

Kind regards,
Lukas

Hi,

the Reaper track hosting the VEP Plugin needs to have set the correct minimum number of channels (4 in your case), is that the case? You can see this in the routing window of the track or the FX chain window by clicking on the "xy out" in the upper right corner.

Now on the receiving Reaper track you add a receive (or on the hosting track a send, respectively), that sets the required source Track channel (1&2 or 3&4) to the receiving track's 1&2 channel.

In your case it seems that you assign (last screenshot) 1&2 --> 3&4, which means: Source track channels 1&2 --> receiving track channels 3&4, but what you actually want is source track channels 3&4 --> receiving track channels 1&2.

Does this help?

Thank you, that was easy!
Strange that I missed that while trying to find the problem...

Thanks!

Hello!

I recently have a problem with using Kontakt Player 5 and 6 within VEP7 Server. The GUI of some instruments (it seems that only Cinematic Studio Series is affected) is completely distorted (see screenshot). I think this happens since an update to Kontakt Player 6 and the relocation (via Native Access) of the dlls, but I'm not sure about this. Also, I had this problem once before.

Interestingly enough, this does not affect those instruments inside VEP7 Standalone or already existing instances of these VSTs inside my template.

Hello,

I'm sorry, I should have been more precise - I'm talking about VIP!
I'm rebuilding my templates since with VEP7 the old ones crash VEP7 as soon as I connect to a server instance via Reaper. Using this to make some adaptions, which would actually just be adding one or to columns in the middle of an existing matrix.

Kind regards

Hello!

Is there a way to insert a row/column in an exisiting matrix after an exisiting row/column?

Kind regards,
Lukas

Originally Posted by: jasensmith

So just bounce the tracks and mix the audio?
What's the difference?

But bouncing the tracks implies having separate Audio Outs, doesn't it? Or what do you mean?

What CPU penalty are we talking about, actually?

Thanks!

Hmmokay... I wanted to do the mixing in the DAW, but...

Hello!

Unfortunately, I can't find the thread anymore where I found this, but I think I read that there might be problems with having too many audio outs from a VEP instance to the DAW. Is that in any way correct or was I dreaming...?

Thank you!
Lukas

Originally Posted by: PaoloT

I select matrices with Program Change messages. Inside the matrices, the X-axis is always a Keyswitch. Y-axis can be controlled by speed (to select slow or fast legato, for example); but it can also be controlled by Keyswitch Velocity, when I want to select a particular cell in a column. Also, it can be Velocity, when different dynamics articulations are involved (like fp for the lower velocity, sfz for the middle, sffz for the higest).

Unfortunately, a bug makes Keyswitch Velocity not always viable. When it is, it is a great way to save message counts.

Thanks for the insight. :-)
I think, I just need to start tinkering... (How much I hate to start working without a plan I'm totally sure about, haha.)

@civilizazion_3: Thanks for the warning. 

Originally Posted by: civilization 3

I have certain basic notions of it, like one for shorts, one for performance legato and marcato, one for repetitiions.

But I might just build them ad hoc according to what I need. Not that they'd be incoherent but I'll end up with a 'shorts and dynamics' in two rows with CC1 to get the second row in matrix 2 while 1 is Performance legato +_ marcato. The thing is with me, I don't like to have a preset with a lot of stuff disabled (w. 10-12 cells, you know), I don't do 'whole' type of templates at any level, each piece is rather different, not generic.

Interesting approach! But doesn't that end up in a lot of redundant work? And at the cost of certain advantages like compatibility among instruments etc.?

I do plan do have a "custom piece matrix", though, housing the patches created for a piece specifically...
Or if I go for the multi matrices approach, these could be added as additional rows...

Hello Paolo,

first: Thanks for your ample reply - I do hope that others will chime in as well. :-)

I thought and "feared" that this was covered here already, although the search/google gave me a hard time finding the threads. So, feel free to add links to those threads, if you find them useful. (Like this one, for instance.)

@SE: Did you use time-stretched patches and the like in your SE single matrix era?
@multi matrices: How do you navigate between matrices and columns? Both key-switches?

Cheers,
Lukas

Hello!

I find myself in a paralysis caused by ... options and this is my pitiful little cry for help. 
My modest template is about to evolve, yet some evolutionary steps are still unclear.
I am using the special editions.

Essentially, I want to use time stretching on some samples (e.g. stac --> staccatissimo, portamento lengths, ...) and slot-x-fade to combine samples like different shorts, or long+short for more attack etc.

I'm unsure whether to build a single matrix with keyswitch/mod wheel navigation or multiple matrices like short, long, trm etc. Or even one matrix per basic articulation like staccato matrix containing stretches, combinations...

How are you or have you been dealing with these questions? What are your experiences and which solutions do fit your workflow (which is....) best and why?

Kind regards,
Lukas

PS.: I couldn't really find such a thread via the search function...so bear with me, please, if I missed it...

Hello!

Since next year I'll have a course about orchestration/instrumentation at university, I felt like performing some necromancy on this thread here...

I'm sure such a "printable version" of your amazing Academy contents would come in very handy! :-)

Kind regards,
Lukas

Ah, sure, sorry, I forgot to mail it!

Thanks.

Hello!

I used VE6 earlier and loaded one of my old VE6 templates into VEP7 Server. When I try to connect to this instance via REAPER (Windows 10, 64bit) , VEP7 crashes (see report below). It connects to newly created instances in VEP7 just fine. Any idea what is happening?

Kind regards,
Lukas

Hello!

Is there a reason why no VSL software products (VEP, VSPlayer, VSPianos etc; the exception being VIP) don't let you change the installation path? I for my part like to organize my software the way I see fit (e.g. separating and collecting all music related software independent from all my science software etc.).

Would it be troublesome to offer a custom installation path as the VIP installer does also for your other software?

Kind regards,
Lukas

EDIT: It might also be of use to add version numbers to the executables? Now that I have installed VEP7, I always have to discern VE6 and VEP7 via their symbol because their names are equal... 

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

So, in the advanced tab of VIpro's advanced view (the little tab right by edit and stretch) you will have an option for "Start Offset Mode."  Try selecting "leg" in that menu, and then fiddle with the "Start Offset" ms and the "Start Offset Attack" ms.

The "Start" fader located by the "attack" fader can then be used to control how much of that "Start Offset" effects the legato transition between notes.  

With the right settings, and each instrument/passage is different, you can remove that "harsh" or unmusical transition from note to note.

A number of users make multiple legato patches out of the stock legato articulation for each instrument... and each one may have a different Start Offset Mode to be triggered from repetations, the first note only, or even all.

Also by having multiple edited legato patches, different tuning/humanize settings will also help the performance "glide" from note to note in a much more convincing way.

I would begin your experiments with a string portamento, as it is the most obvious to hear when messing with the Start Offset.

Lastly, if you have an adagio passage of whole notes, save yourself the time and energy and do NOT use the legato articulations.... use the sustains and mess with attack/release.

Thank you for that insight-ful information! I will try to play with these (and other settings). Are these also MIDI-controllable? So I don't need (worst case scenario) one cell per phrase so to say?
Also, how do you manage all the variations of patches/cells you create?

Kind regards,
Lukas

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh

Legato blur and the VI Pro options that allow you to cut into the sample (the degree to which is determined by the “Start” fader) are helpful.

Do you mean Attack, Release etc?

Any more thoughts and infos on this matter and the questions I raised? :) Any comment, insight and experience/tip is appreciated!

Cheers,
Lukas

Would you mind sharing some basic architecture of your template? Goals and rationale...? I'm working on my template right now, and I'm sure that could be useful. :)

Hello, I finally found some time again to play with my libraries and I stumbled again over an old question bugging me:

What are the most usual ways (since I guess that there's not the way...) to use the sustain, legato and legato-sus patches? (I'm using the special editions.)

I am aware that the legato patches provide 2 velocity layers, the sustains 3 and the legato-sus patches crossfade from the legato transitions into the sustain samples (implying that the end notes will always play the same samples, according to the manual).

I assume that the 2 layers in the legato patches concern the transitions... are the 3 velocity layers of the sustains still used in the legato patch? Or do I have to "decide" between "two legato layers or three velocity layers"?

Furthermore, it quite often happens that the the transition at a desired volume is either too soft or too harsh, thus, the desired volume level can't be reached by the use of vel-x-fade (alone). Do you then use CC11 to make the fine tuning? Or do you switch to the sustain patch for these intervals? (Or put differently "How would you control volume/timbre somewhat differently from the actual transition layer?").

I hope you can follow on my trains of thought and maybe provide some useful hints. :)

Thanks and good night,
Lukas

Hello!

I just wondered while looking through the sample lists of the SE Editions...
Do I see correctly - and if yes, why is it? - that the SE1(+) or SE3 respectively don't feature Orchestral Strings muted legatos? Not owning SE3 makes the Orchestral Strings the most versatile section (for they have sordini samples), but as soon as you own SE3 they stand behind, because it's the only of the four big ensemble sizes in the SE now featuring NO sordini legato...

Cheers,
Lukas

Originally Posted by: FabioA

Ciao Paolo,
You are correct. I think it's better 99% of the time to have velocity to control dynamic for staccato and percussive articulation. But I would'n use a cc to turn on and off the velocity xfade; in VI pro you can go in the advanced panel, select edit and set velocity xfade off (the other possibility is on or global) for every single patch. So you can set the xfade off for every staccato, pizzicato articulations and use cc1 (or cc2) to control dynamic for sustained articulations.

I guess the global option might be useful (in the light of this question) for "long shorts" (talking about sfz or fp patches), which often might be triggered conveniently by velocity, however, sometimes could be further shaped by wiggling the vel-x-fade fader (to produce the faint idea of a sffz for instance)...

-Lukas