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1.Sonokoda 12/21/2022 6:01:26 AM

I also took a sneak peak at the third mvmt. 

Wow, this is like a modern version of Rozsa. 

You have great mastery of the craft...certainly in the upper echelon of composers here.

Anand

2.Sonokoda 12/21/2022 5:57:51 AM

Hi there,

I started listening, and my reaction on hearing the first brass chord was ....whoaaaa.

Love the way you open the symphony.

The piece is full of rich orchestral colors, and the structure and form seem solid. Congrats on this fantastic work.

Cant wait to listen to the whole thing!

Thanks for sharing. 

Anand

3.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 10/18/2022 4:06:17 AM

Errikos,

what a great post indeed.

As always everything you said makes perfect sense. 

When it comes to craft I always think of a chair. Will I ever venture out to make a chair on my own not knowing anything about it? Maybe I am a genius to whom chair making comes naturally. A simple as a chair looks, if I stick four pieces of wood and a bunch of planks with no matter how much care and effort, the product will be miserable and may not even be stable. On the other hand, maybe a short course on carpentry can allow me to construct a chair on which someone can sit down without falling, although it wont be as comfortable as a chair made by a carpenter with lifelong professional experience. 

In the same way one can learn the basics of music (given some basic musical aptitude, ear) to write a piece with  form, even though it may not turn out to be masterpiece, it will still "stand" on its own. And boy is it glaringly obvious when a person has not learnt their craft.

And there are these geniuses who have some kind of innate musical ability that cannot be taught. But you correctly pointed out that even that is no excuse for not learning craft.

And then there is a third kind of artist who both has the craft and the genius. 

When I listen to a Haydn symphony, it is like looking at a chair made by a lifelong professional...all the elements are there and it is stable and complete in form. There is a satisfaction inherent in hearing that structure. But with Mozart there is the additional element of spark. I can live with Haydn's music for a long time as the form is so satisfying:)

Anand

4.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 9/24/2022 5:32:02 PM

Nice to see this thread revived.

I had a lot to say, but then Errikos said 99% of it much more eloquently than I would have.

The 1% where I disagree might be due to my own ignorance, but I will come to that later in this post.

First, the key point of my OP (and one that Errikos embellished incredibly well) was that training Music theory and inner hearing (most important!) create an entirely different type of composer which is impossible to match by just playing with keyboards and software. The brain the the most sophisticated sequencer. The evidence for this is abundant in the quality of works as Errikos elaborated.

Having said that, there are other types of music, although 'lesser' in complexity than art music, that have validity as they come purely from the heart....a means of human expression, that somehow moves the audience as they relate to that at an emotional level more than they would to Rachmaninoff or Beethoven. Although I dont appreciate the 'lesser' music myself, I have come to accept its existence as a fact of life and tried to be more inclusive of my friends who enjoy 'lighter' music more than art music. Everything has its place...

Now the point where I - not quite disagree - but would rather like to put forth a point in response to Errikos's comment about Jazz being less complex than Classical, can be best illustrated by an example.

In a documentary about Art Tatum, they talked about how Horowitz once spent an entire 2 weeks developing variations of Art Tatum's 'Tea for two' . Horowitz then played this in front of Tatum, following which Art Tatum sat on the piano for 10 minutes and blew Horowitz's mind away by creating incredibly complex harmonies that Horowitz couldnt conceive in two weeks! Horowitz wasnt a composer but still...this was very illuminating.

But AFIK early Jazz musicians did study Western classical and were influenced by it, besides gospel and the blues, and the complex rhythms the slaves brought from Africa. I dont think they derived the harmonic theory entirely on their own. I see Jazz and Blues, the root of most 20th century western popular music, as a collective contribution of many cultures, but strongly rooted in African American music, which was the most essential part. 

That was my ignorant 2 cents.

Anand

5.New World Symphony - Allegro Con Fuoco 9/2/2022 4:34:09 PM

Very commendable effort in reproducing this piece. Thanks for sharing.

While I appreciate you must have put a lot of work into this, and there are some moments of great realism, I should be frank in saying that this makes me realize how far far far away sample libraries are to a real recording of classical works. 

Anand

6.Dame Shirley Bassey (85) 'Diamonds Are Forever' 2022 7/15/2022 3:19:31 AM

Errikos, its now your turn to clear the mailbox:) My reply to you just bounced.

We need some quick workaround for the VSL 100 messages limit to avoid running into this problem. There is a button to export messages but that doesn't seem to work for me.

Anand

7.Dame Shirley Bassey (85) 'Diamonds Are Forever' 2022 7/13/2022 10:37:23 PM

Originally Posted by: mh-7635 Go to Quoted Post

Hi Anand,

Well thank you to you too, I'm sure I don't merit these kind words but am sincerely flattered regardless.

Oh Boy the latest JWT photos are mind blowing. I can't wait to see what they might find when JWT turns its attention to exoplanet atmospheres. 

(Anand, I responded to your PM but couldn't see it in my outbox after I'd sent it - perhaps I clicked the 'cancel' button by mistake. Let me know if you got it -  thnx).

Hi Mike,

Your humility is another inspiration for me. Much like the way I feel about John Williams. In the end its not the achievements, skill level or genius that counts but how we are as human beings. Much to learn from that!

And yes we have decades of more images from JW coming! Such an exciting time for science.

Best 

Anand

8.Dame Shirley Bassey (85) 'Diamonds Are Forever' 2022 7/13/2022 10:24:10 PM

Mike and Errikos,

Apologies that your messages bounced. My inbox was indeed full and I cleared it a bit now. Still gotta keep those messages from you both with valuable composition and orchestration tips!

Anand 

9.Dame Shirley Bassey (85) 'Diamonds Are Forever' 2022 7/12/2022 4:57:46 AM

I am very poor with astronomical names.

But they already released some images of JW and it looks amazing....galaxies splintered all over. 

I wonder if Holst' would write for galaxies if he saw these? His 'Planets' are already so apt for these gigantic views of the Universe in any case.

Continuing our Mike Hewer gossip, I started listening to his Symphony no. 2. What a truly remarkable piece of work! reminds me a little of Rodney Bax, Samuel Barber and the early 20th century romantics. (I hope I am not revealing my ignorance in these comparisons) . This recording is not only remarkable for the how sophisticated the composition is ..but also for how well it is rendered. I must say I have never heard any rendering of a long form symphony by virtual orchestra with such amazing quality. 

Sorry for deviating topics Errikos, but you started it:) 

Anand

10.Dame Shirley Bassey (85) 'Diamonds Are Forever' 2022 7/11/2022 9:11:47 PM

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

mh-7635: Mike! Very long time, no see...

All is well enough as can be, thank you. How are you? One of the very top programmers of orchestral simulations I have ever heard here. Your Holmside, but the way, sounds like a veritable tour de force. I so enjoyed a few minutes of it, I am going to find time to listen to the whole, and I recommend it to everybody here so they can clear their H.Z.-besmeared palettes with some real music by an actual forum member.

100% Agree. I have heard Holmside a while back and was blown away. Need to listen again!

Mike is a composer I wish I heard played by leading orchestras...not that his programming is not impressive enough to handle the complex music he creates.

Nice to hear from you Mike. You are the first person to actually teach me how to go about learning (real and not fake) orchestration...am still working on it!

In other note, since you have also shared your enthusiasm about Science as well (same with William), hope you are all looking forward to the release of the first images from James Webb telescope to be live cast here (talking of bad influence of H.Z. on music, the accompanying music in this video is sadly so terrible that it depresses me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmMRMIE3MGw

11.Is there an equivalent to this? 7/1/2022 2:49:54 PM

One of my favorite scores of John Williams is Seven Years in Tibet. Listening to the opening theme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhBAPkdNQko

I've often wondered if there are any parallels in film music...I dont believe so. The main theme within the first few seconds has an apparent modulation over multiple keys, at least to my untrained ears!  It starts with C, then seems to move to B, then F and back to C. If not true modulations in a classical sense, it at least sounds fantastically more interesting and innovative than anything Ive heard.

Someone commented that the sweeping chromatic rise and fall is reminiscent of the Himalayas. Only JW can reach those peaks.

Ive heard very few discussions about JW and his tonal style, which I feel has no parallel either in film or classical music. People only talk about the great themes and orchestration. But the key to me is the single melodic line that you could play on the piano with one hand that will distinguish him...just like any other great composer.

Anand

12.Has chameleon Elfman finally stopped channelling Herrmann? 7/1/2022 3:28:22 AM

Excellent posts William and Errikos.

Elfman is a particularly interesting and useful case in point for the contrast between academic composers and pure talent. Because, as you say, Elfman has originality and definitely has some training, but not to the level of JW. But still with his relatively limited training he managed to produce pretty outstanding scores.

I am reminded of that quote from good will hunting: "at least I am not unoriginal!"

It is interesting William you mention being snubbed by a professor. I am not professional like you, but I had a similar experience which I will never forget. I took formal music lessons with a faculty from a reputed conservatory. He was quite knowledgeable about music and I did learn many things from him...although not entirely because of he wanted to teach me, but rather because they were bits and pieces he threw at me. Boy was he the most insecure composer I've personally come across! He would constantly keep reiterating that he has a doctorate in music (since I have doctorate in physics), and how he was friends with Samuel Adler, and how he knew this and that, and how perfect his score handwriting used to be....

He barely paid attention to me as a student who has his own passion for music....he made me feel absolutely worthless, and even said that there is no way I can take a serious course in music. He gave me the impression that he has no belief I could do anything serious in music. That might be true, but thats exactly the opposite of what a teacher is supposed to do!

What is funny is that I do not think his imagination was anything above the ordinary. Thats why hardly anyone knows about him!

I only wish he was less insecure and taught music for the joy that it was....he would have had more fun that way.

Anand

13.Has chameleon Elfman finally stopped channelling Herrmann? 6/30/2022 11:21:48 AM

Speaking of Elfman in the OP, you may be familiar with this famous response of his to a university professor who implied that Elfman relied entirely on others to make his scores:

https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=8458&forumID=1&archive=1

14.Has chameleon Elfman finally stopped channelling Herrmann? 6/30/2022 2:30:39 AM

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

agitato: There is a symphony, and tons of concerti for almost every instrument, the most recent of which was a violin concerto (his 2nd) for Anne Sophie Mutter. However, prepare yourself for their not being anything like Star Wars or Harry Potter.

William: As overly plagiaristic Horner was in a genre where it is even expected -you're right of course and I could add to your list (ex. Glory - Carmina Burana)- I would take him any day over the current frauds. At least he knew his music, and his Aliens soundtrack was powerful! Other scores of his I enjoyed as a teenager were those of Brainstorm and Cocoon, although I don't know how I would react to them today. I haven't listened to those vinyls for decades...

Yes Ive heard his concertos....the Tuba one is just phenomenally playful.

And yes they are no Harry potter or Star Wars. I think his film scores are like a walk in the park while the concert pieces are what he really takes effort to do.

I meant that I wish his volume of output in this was even more.

About Horner I would have to disagree that he is better than todays frauds. I would even take Hans Zimmer over him. No content music is better than blatant plagiarized music, which makes the listener feel really stupid....since he seems to have assumed that no one would find out he just stole almost every score of his from someone else.

15.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 6/29/2022 10:30:32 PM

Originally Posted by: winknotes_282 Go to Quoted Post

Maybe a picture of Korngold's "studio" would be applicable as an apples to apples comparison (to Williams of course).  

Well, Korngold's "studio" wouldn't look very different from JWs :)

I get a kick out of the wider contrast with Zimmer's.

16.Has chameleon Elfman finally stopped channelling Herrmann? 6/29/2022 10:12:29 PM

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

I have to continue with my rant about James Horner.  These are plagiarisms I noticed NOT because I read about them on the internet, but noticed WATCHING THE FILMS.  i was just trying to watch some movie and bam!  wait a minute, that music sounds familiar!  Yeah, it's not only familiar it's an exact copy!  

Shostakovich, 5th Symphony, Adagio, Flute and Harp soli.  Stolen with the same exact orchestration and uncredited, for the really bad fantasy film The Sorceresses. 

Charles Ives, The Unanswered Question .  Stolen for the Main Title (!) of the also bad film C.H.U.D. a low grade horror film Horner scored.

Robert Schumann, 3rd Symphony First Movement, main theme. Stolen for the film Willow. Horner took everything from this theme and just added some fanfares  in the brass.  

He regularly lifted stuff for his scores, and all of it uncredited.  Why? Because it's classical music, which meant to him - it is free to steal.  

I have no idea of how many other things he stole - probably many.  These are only a few I  noticed because I was watching the films.  

Wow. this list adds to my already existing aversion to Horner. 

I couldn't agree with you more William. I think Horner is the most shameless plagiarist 'composer' at a professional level (and one who made a lot of money at that) that ever existed. 

Ive also noticed his copycat reproduction of other music with shock, and often cringed at how shameless this man was.

As to John Williams,  I like this quote from wikipedia...

Norwegian composer Marcus Paus argues that Williams's "satisfying way of embodying dissonance and avant-garde techniques within a larger tonal framework" makes him "one of the great composers of any century".

Yes I agree...one of the greatest composers of any century!I 

What I like about this quote is that it emphasizes what most people dont talk about...the complexity of JWs tonal language. 

The only drawback with JWilliams is the limited number of longer form works...he hasn't written as many concert works as a classical musician would. But I heard thats exactly what he plans to do following retirement next year...to write concert pieces. I cant wait for his first Symphony!!!

17.You see?! It's not just me! 5/31/2022 8:50:57 PM

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

agitato: I finally saw a few portions of the 'elitism' video; the girl is clearly out of her gourd in that one...

Glad you agree. Maybe she had too much beer before recording that clip, and the truth is revealed!

18.You see?! It's not just me! 5/31/2022 1:55:06 AM

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

agitato: I did notice the video you refer to, and did not waste my time watching it. If she said the things you wrote here, she is hypocritical for she is very well conservatory trained. As such, she is not the best person to aver that one can "make it" without knowing music proper. I look at her videos for technical tips on equipment and workflow as she is working in the industry (not just a hopeful). However, there are videos where she does very clearly remark how ludicrous it is to believe that one can become a composer through an Internet course or by just mocking about with libraries. 

I get the impression that she was put down or insulted by a prof in her music school and is just venting off...to say "look here I am ... a Hollywood composer who makes a lot of money and made it! you loser professors! So no one needs your education!!"

Funny how one stupid video can reveal a person in full. Thankfully I do not find anything special about her music....pretty average stuff... and I have much better music to listen to and learn from.

What is sad is that this video obviously will mislead a lot of youngsters who are ready to scorn any kind of learning that is not about the latest patches or synths (something you have frequently decried here). Everything is supposed to be innate and obvious because it is "Art" ...as opposed to what?...engineering or science where you need to actually learn something? That is the greatest misconception that really puts me off.

Ironically I am a scientist and not really a conservatory trained musician....except for some part-time courses and playing instruments all my life...but I can appreciate that composing music or any other art needs proper training in the craft to reach a basic level of sophistication. No wonder Hollywood music sucks today.

I have been scorned by music professors too, but I never mind that since they know more than me. I would never put down music education just because I felt insulted by some 'elite'.

But I know you know all this much more than me....and see your point about the other video in the OP.

Anand

19.You see?! It's not just me! 5/30/2022 5:09:31 PM

I used to respect this YouTuber, until when she posted this ridiculous opinion video about how music  conservatories are elitist and that music education is not essential:

https://youtu.be/YGtrq9Qnx6I

It was only then that I realized that this person is a totally self important and ignorant moron. That ill-informed rant video completely turned me off and I cannot bear to watch her videos anymore.

20.Evangelos Papathanassiou. 5/20/2022 5:24:37 PM

Thanks Errikos for this sad news.

Firstly I didnt know that Vangelis had a Greek last name. It is sad that I didnt hear the news anywhere.

Chariots of Fire was such a remarkable score and illustrates to me that a highly effective film score need not necessarily have anything to do with gigantic orchestral arrangements (despite me being a big fan of the latter). Blade runner was also truly amazing and a pioneering score, to one of my favorite movies.

It shows me that genuine creativity and originality does not depend on the tools used, which could be an old synth or the bongo drum, or the VSL or the LSO. Any of these could sound great (or horrible) in the right (wrong) hands.

Lets drink one to the memory of Vangelis!

Anand

21.Orchestral textures 5/18/2022 4:22:27 AM

I chanced upon "Punkte - for orchestra" by Stockhausen and was reminded of one of the other threads where the conversation was about how traditional orchestral sounds were the old relic and limited texturally, and how electronic instruments offered unlimited textures and wider palette.

https://youtu.be/VWd_LsF06cA

So far in my life I am yet to hear any "electronic composer" even coming close to these seemingly infinite variety of sound textures that Stockhausen creates in this piece, all entirely using acoustic instruments, and vividly holding your interest for 26 minutes! Just mind boggling.

Imagination is more important than tools I guess.

Enjoy

Anand

22.Will orchestras survive the digital revolution's next step? 5/7/2022 4:28:03 PM

What is Orchestral Intonation? Tuning of the orchestra?

I don't see orchestras dying anytime soon. To prove for  yourself, try finding a seat in a classical/opera concert at leading orchestras. For instance I could not find tickets to the Met Opera playing Turandot, granted I only looked 2 weeks out....there were 5 seats left with an openly stated 'obstructed view', costing 150 bucks. Rest is sold out...including the > $500 seats.

Why? Incomparable sound to listening to a DAW recording, or even a real orchestra recording. You can'treplace the acoustics of a concert hall easily, let alone the dynamism of 100 professional players playing live.

Cheers

Anand

23.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 5/2/2022 5:41:56 PM

Originally Posted by: Macker Go to Quoted Post

I think the difference today is more than adoption of "electric manuscript and pencil" technology.

I'll go so far as to say this: the sine qua non for any would-be composer of orchestral music is to possess very well stocked auditory experience of orchestras playing live.

The clock cannot be turned back now. My dream is for electric manuscript and pencil technology to include Orchestral Intonation. I firmly believe that will, in its own good time, dramatically increase the chances of an abundance of great works of composition.

Even on the popular music side, what was the impact of the disappearance of orchestral instrument combos in the post-war decades of the 20th century? I believe musical sophistication and art took a terrible turn for the worse in western popular music following that disappearance. And I speak as one who doted on his LP collection of popular works back in the day - from Santana to Hendrix, Zeppelin and Floyd and so many others.

Yes I agree about the need for auditory experience. And this is is a fundamental training requirement in classical conservatories, and is honed to an exceptionally precise level in JW/Mahler/ etc., ..and surely some composers on this forum too. Thats what fascinates me, the ability to do that as a craft.

Btw, you are putting a lot of emphasis on orchestral music. But what I am referring is more about the craft of "inner hearing". With this, one could write a jazz piece, rock piece, with a solo instrument, a quartet or 100 instruments, be it electronic or acoustic, or even virtual samples like VSL!. After all, a huge repertoire of western classical music is for small ensembles. 

In my thinking, the question is not about the tools used, but rather, what level of musical (tonal/harmonic/textural/rhythmic) imagination is done by the brain vs left to the computer. The craft needed for "brain" composing (including solfege, inner hearing, etc.,) is the same irrespective of the tools or the style of music , and is dying. As historical evidence points to, the more work done by the brian, the more complex and rich the music is. This might hold true, until maybe if and when we get true AI, probably in a 1000 years.

Cheers

Anand

24.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 5/2/2022 5:06:07 PM

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post
Brilliant juxtaposition! The discrepancy is of course due to only one of them being a musician. I didn't say who.

:)

25.Studios of John Williams Vs Hans Zimmer 5/2/2022 5:03:06 PM

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

Agitato that is a great post and as usual - a picture is worth a thousand words! 

I would add I often think of Mahler's "composing hut." Here he would retire from conducting in the summer, going to his rather nicely appointed little hut which was furnished with a piano, table, chair and score paper.  Here he created such vastly complex orchestral works as the 8th Symphony - a composition of huge length as well as  extreme mastery of orchestration, choral writing, and beauty of melodic, contrapuntal and harmonic invention.  These are works that defined and created modern orchestration and allowed the symphony to reach its greatest heights of expressiveness.  And all he had was a piano, his mind and hands. That's the ultimate in composing.   

   

Yes absolutely... Thanks for pointing that out William. Mahler the God was another order of magnitude above JW! To imagine such complex contrapuntal orchestral textures and that too in long form, all with just a piano and sounds of nature, awe inspiring!

But to me JW is so special a gift for us, being a representative of that same craft, alive today, as Dudamel of the LA Phil once put it. There are many other great composers of that craft today of course, but JW is just a representative.

For completeness sake, and to Williams' point, here I include Mahler's composing hut and room, taken from this link:https://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/08/mahler_on_the_b.html

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