This sounds so good. Thank you for sharing this Bill!

-Anand 

Originally Posted by: Paul McGraw

Originally Posted by: agitato

Originally Posted by: Paul McGraw

Now, young people are taught to hate western civilization and everything it stood for. I could rant on about this for days on end. But in the case of music, how can anyone expect anything other than stuff called music that reflects the values (or lack of values) of the modern world?

Sorry to say, I think there is a contradiction in your statements. Isn't the so called 'modern world' attributed largely  to  'western civilization'...planes, trains, automobiles, capitalism...and the corporate music Errikos referred to? Let alone that it was a pure coincidence of history that all this happend in the so called 'western world'? 

Yet you say that young people are taught to hate this 'western civilization' whereas I would think it is quite the opposite. Or perhaps you are referring to something else by 'western civilization'.

Anand

You are referring to technology and inventions. Not culture. 

Paul McGraw

Ok, but eveyone is following 'western culture' these days. So I am still not sure what your point is. I hope it is not "no one is following "western culture" thats why the music is pretty bad" 

Originally Posted by: Paul McGraw

Now, young people are taught to hate western civilization and everything it stood for. I could rant on about this for days on end. But in the case of music, how can anyone expect anything other than stuff called music that reflects the values (or lack of values) of the modern world?

Sorry to say, I think there is a contradiction in your statements. Isn't the so called 'modern world' attributed largely  to  'western civilization'...planes, trains, automobiles, capitalism...and the corporate music Errikos referred to? Let alone that it was a pure coincidence of history that all this happend in the so called 'western world'? 

Yet you say that young people are taught to hate this 'western civilization' whereas I would think it is quite the opposite. Or perhaps you are referring to something else by 'western civilization'.

Anand

As always, I am totally with you on this.

If I can offer any help towards your depression and exasperation at the current state of music, perhaps this will be a refreshing breath of air?....

The "Siren sounds waltz" by the 14 year child prodigy Alma Deuscher (actual music starts around 2:50, unless you want to listen to her intro): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0xMpLXQNvM&list=PLVn-hJ6Izu5NFfAsBx0KiST2mF0AcC3Ue&index=20&t=0s

I think this is pretty remarkable music for a person of that age, or maybe of any age, if we include all the crap music out there. She gives me so much hope for the future.

Anand 

Originally Posted by: leigh

I believe Steinberg and VSL are in a dialog about expression maps for Dorico 3.

**Leigh

Oh is that true? I thought VSL were too busy at the moment and it wont be a while before we see soundsets (or expression maps is hte better term?) for Dorico.

Hi Eric,

okay aside from this, if I can ask, how are you managing the expression mapping from Dorico to VSL...did you make your own maps? That is another big question for me as to how to use VSL from Dorico without a sequencer. Otherwise I dont see a point in switching other than getting pretty scores which I dont care about.

if you have a way of solving the expression map (until when VSL can release a Dorico specific soundsets) that would be very helpful.

Thanks 

Anand

I just started listening to the cello concerto and like it as well! I am yet to listen fully. The opening is far more sunny and cheerful than the violin concerto.

I appreciate your input, and glad Dorico worked for you, but I stand by my original post.

Here is another example of the struggle. I gave Dorico another try. First off it is absurd why I need to do shift+N to do note entering. In Sibelius its s simple "D". 

And to transpose in Sibelius its contr+up/down arrow  while in Dorico it is Alt+Ctrl+up/down arrow. Why that extra Alt if I may ask? Seems very dumb to me. I can imagine that when writing big scores this will be a tremendous waste ot time. I do not fancy pressing complex key patterns. Simplicity is the key. But Dorico makes writing on paper seem worthwhile.

btw for some reason when I did try Alt+Ctrl+up arrow the entire score becomes upside down! no transpose or anything. A very fancy software indeed! Does everything except help me write music faster.

Ah, nice bit of history there. Actually I havent come to the third movement yet. Cant wait to hear it now. Will check out the cello concerto as well!

That was well put Mike.

What a line up of composers there...Errikos, William and Mike Hewer...I love this forum where I can banter with serious composers and ask amateurish questions. like the one below:

I wonder what you think about John Williams' violin concerto, and where you would place it in the 20th century music literature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi3ECEzyfAY

To my naive ears, this sounds atonal. I can barely make out a tonal center or melody....(even more remarkable given JW is one of the great melody makers of Hollywood.) But would you also consider this "atonal"? The Rozsa piece surely has a tonal center and quite a few beautiful melodies.

I find this piece to be an interesting contrast from Rozsa although I immensly enjoy both of the. Both were film composers but fully trained in the classical tradition. But why does William's music sound so different...is it just the few decades that separated them?  I didnt go to music school and am really curious what you think. It is also interesting to me that JW would not choose to write a more populist piece for his concert works. Its as if he didnt have to answer to anyone and was purely driven by his artistic vision.

(btw The one sure difference between the two is JW is alive, and I have "met" him....it was when he was leaving after a BSO concert. I was a few inches away but too embarassed to even get an autograph.)

Anand

Dave, agreed. I toned it down a bit and changed the post title too.

little less angry now as I am distracted by other stuff.

Thanks Ben for the cheat sheet. I think I found your sheet on the spitfire forum and did try it. While you did an amazing job with the layout, Doico still wont comply. Many of the shortcuts just didnt work for me.

Also the non intuitive mapping of the note lengths just pisses me off...makes me feel that the developers (formerly from Sibelius, I believe) are just plain idiots, or want to deliberately make our life harder. I suspect it is the former.

Besides, I couldnt get the expression maps to work most of the time. For instance if I write "flutter-tongue" for flute, it wouldnt pull up the right CC and keyswitch, obiviously because it didnt recognize that articulation from the score although it was a valid playing technique within the expression map editor. Also tried f.t. etc., ....

So for now I am not inclinded to go back and try this again. I am relishing Sibelius even more now.

Best

Anand

I downloaded a trial version of Dorico 3 out of curiosity. After much struggle for a week, I gave up.

While the interface is all pretty and the engraving features blah blah are nice, it is a pain in the butt to use. It is so non intuitive compared to Sibelius. What I do not understand is, why would the same team that developed Sibelius create another software with entirely different keyboard shortcuts that are non intuitive? For instance in Sibelius 6 = 1/16th note, 3 is 1/32, 4 is 1/4, 2 is 1/2 and 1 is a whole note.In Dorico there is no such simple and intuitive shortcuts, for example 1 = 1/32nd I think!!! Why???? and you have to relearn everything. And nothing else is intutive either, how you create new bars, accidentals,  etc....In sibelius < is crescendo and > is diminuendo. How much more intuitive can one get?

Besides this, of course that there are no expression maps in Dorico for VSL. I tried making my own, but Dorico does not recongize many articulations and it was an utter waste of time (as you can see I am pretty pissed)

In summary Dorico doesnt work (at least for me) and I am thankful they let me try a demo first. And this after so much buzz and suspense for years, blogs and what not!

I am extremely happy to have VSL soundets for Sibelius. Thank you Andi and team for making Sibelius so easy to use! 

Cheers

Anand

separate post

since we are on this topic here is his violin concerto as well, played by none other than Heifetz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRxCQ-Ktfn4

I am also in a state of depression, although, it is related to my scientific world and not music;)

This piece is so refreshing. Rozsa is one of my favorites. I have not heard this piece but I have the violin concerto. As Bill says this has echoes of his film scores like Ben-hur, but yet so technically masterful, sounds like Tchaikovsky blended with Prokofiev, yet being so uniquely Rozsa. 

...hard to believe the kind of training these folks had with no technology or computers.

I find it inspiring that such music is possible, or maybe it is not possible anymore!

Anand

P.S. quickly looked up his bio wiki..his piano teacher learnt from students of Lizst. Oh well....

This is fantastic work.. Your have superb orchestration skills.

The piece begins apparently innocently, with a solo oboe and woodwind melodies...later growing into gigantic sound. I would have difficulty distinguishing this from some 20th century romantic music and classic hollywood orchestral scores. You control the dramatic narrative with a combination of tonal, harmonic and orchestral effects.  For example the crescendo and rapid diminuendo that starts to swell around 1:39. I also heard somethings different from traditional stuff, like the notes played by the flute around 1:33, sounds like an Indian scale.

Congrats on the great piece of work! (I am already listening to it for the third time now.)

Anand 

WOW indeed. 

Its a 4-1/2 hour long symphony and you sequenced all of that? What an incredibly complex yet beautiful orchestration, and highly accurate rendering with VSL. I almost cant believe its not a live orchestra.

I had never heard of this composer. Thanks for introuducing me and for your rendition. Also turns out he is the first western classical composer of Indian origin that I have heard of.  His music sounds a lot like Messiaen to my naive ears, I wonder who influenced who.

Best

Anand

Hi Bill,

yes you are absolutely right...actually even as I was typing I was thinking of  exactly what you said: "Nobody who does classical music can ignore Beethoven. Or Bach. Or Mozart. "

But I typed anyway being lazy to explain what I actually meant. I did not at all mean that we cant live without art, ... (I for one cant live without music) we absolutely need it. What I meant was that the listener has a choice on who they listen to, and there is so much to choose from, which makes it much harder to stand out as a creator of art. In music there are only rules, but not laws. You can break rules, which is the way great music is in fact made. However in science there are laws, such as Newtons laws or Einsteins gravity, which are valid within a a certain range of conditions and one cannot ignore them as they are inescapable truths about the physical world.

Also about your point: "It is only the modern science-and-materialist attitude that considers nothing except for intellect and logic. "..... I dont think science and art are exclusive, In fact quite the opposite. As you yourself have said many great composers l(ike Saint Saens and Borodin) were engineers or scientists. Even Einstein loved clasical music. I think it is posts like what I wrote earlier that alienate people from science and gives the wrong impression that science is materialistic.

One more point is that most people get by without ever listening to classical music but yet enjoy other forms of music. There is just so many kinds of music that is legitimate art form, particlarly Jazz and Blues. So that makes the burden of the classical composer even greater. If the music is appealing to a particular audience the WILL accept it and listen to it...no one deliberately avoides pleasure or enjoyment!

So, art is as important, probably even more important than science. And there will always be great artists who create works that appeal to the experts and non experts alike. That is the true challenge for an aspiring artist.

cheers

Anand

Hi Dave

its been a while since I wrote on this forum, partly because of Ive been busy with work. Ive been doing a LOT of music but just nothing iready to post yet.

Now I am on vacation and have a lot of free time, so I can browse through all the posts here.

It was interesting to listen to your piece and the discussion. 

Re your piece, I liked it, but I am not yet ready to provide detailed comments. As an artist I am sure you have a reason behind every note and chord in the piece, so I find no point in my providing my own judgement. All I can say now is that the form and texture and something I am not that familiar with, so I simply enjoyed the flow. 

With pieces this long, it is very hard to maintain form. I heard that Ravel defined form as 'continued interest'. I love that definition since that underlies the motivation behind all the standard musical forms, such as sonata, rondo, passacaglia etc., ..since they all provide useful framework to maintain listener interest while avoiding banality and predictablity. I think you did a decent job of this. 

Regarding your coments about not getting feedback, I am not sure why that is surprising to you and why you would care. There is literally thousands of fantasitc music (I mean classical, long form or 'serious' music) avallable for free out there, and the listener of today has tens of thousands of pieces to chose from. I personally feel that it is the composers burden to evoke a response in the listener.. Since this is art, it is not 'essential' and the listener has a choice whether to choose a particular peice of work or not. If it were a piece of scientific work, and if it has validity , it cannot be ignored since science relates to an objective truth. There is no such thing with art. 

So if you really care about a response, maybe try to see what you could do to your music that will make it more approachable or understandable. I do not believe the size or complexity of the music has to do with how popular it can be. The hundreds of 'popular' classical works from Mozart to Stravinsky to John williams that are regularly played in concert halls are sufficient case in point, not to mention the amazing film scores of hollowood.

Even otherwise you should be happy enough that you can write music at this advaced level and be content with your achievement,  and keep writing and hoping that your works will be recognized someday.

It goes without saying that I am an amatuer and do not depend on music for a living, which i understand is a major factor. So please pardon my amateurish views. Just passing my time whiile on vacation!

Anand 

Ive been away for a while. This thread is quite interesting. I am yet to read all the comments but on the topic of live performance, I thought of sharing a section from "Music in the western world"...even Mozart was not immune to bad performances!

Hope you enjoy:

https://books.google.com/books?id=q1eobgND8H4C&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=mozart+%22to+general+applause+on+corpus+christi%22&source=bl&ots=3liW2sWtFk&sig=ACfU3U3gDPaSXEsP9Cd03H5gWvKbpii15g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj70K-w0LjjAhVVCc0KHcE4CBEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=mozart%20%22to%20general%20applause%20on%20corpus%20christi%22&f=false

Cheers

Anand

Very interesting, William. Hope to know the name of that composer (and maybe you can find his music on youtube) and discuss this subject more in a few weeks.

Anand

Hi William,

lovely peice of music. I also did not know that we could adjust temparement/tunings in VI.

I also noted other recent threads with discussions on tunings. This topic fascinates me but unfortunately I am swamped now with work for the next two weeks. But I will come back and read/listen in detail your posts in mid november.

A quick note that this topic reminded me of the book "On the sensations of tone", by Heman Helmholtz, one of the great physicists of the 19th century. The book is one of the classic treatises on the physics of sound, but he also discusses ("rants" is more appropriate, although at a very sophisticated level) for several pages about why ET is terrible and how Bach and Beethoven exploited it to their benefit!

Hope we can have a discussion about this in the near future. 

Best

Anand

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

Hi Anand,

The funny thing is, one's perception of/reception to a piece of music begins with the totality of their past musical experiences. 

Cheers!
Dave

This is very true. Given I do research on medical imaging, I got excited yesterday wondering if it is posisble to record, in some way, the variations in perception of sound/tones/music among different people.  I am sure this has been done before. But I am even more sure that we understand very very little about how the human brain perceives music. 

But I do believe that years from now, you will be able to map, for example, the brains responses to music so sensitively that you can tell if a person is listening to a classical symphony vs  Jazz vs. Rock Pop, etc.,...i.e., we will be able to directly 'see' the level of complexity in the music as revealed by regions/extent of brain simulation.

off topic again...sorry.

Cheers

Anand