Hi Bill,

yes you are absolutely right...actually even as I was typing I was thinking of  exactly what you said: "Nobody who does classical music can ignore Beethoven. Or Bach. Or Mozart. "

But I typed anyway being lazy to explain what I actually meant. I did not at all mean that we cant live without art, ... (I for one cant live without music) we absolutely need it. What I meant was that the listener has a choice on who they listen to, and there is so much to choose from, which makes it much harder to stand out as a creator of art. In music there are only rules, but not laws. You can break rules, which is the way great music is in fact made. However in science there are laws, such as Newtons laws or Einsteins gravity, which are valid within a a certain range of conditions and one cannot ignore them as they are inescapable truths about the physical world.

Also about your point: "It is only the modern science-and-materialist attitude that considers nothing except for intellect and logic. "..... I dont think science and art are exclusive, In fact quite the opposite. As you yourself have said many great composers l(ike Saint Saens and Borodin) were engineers or scientists. Even Einstein loved clasical music. I think it is posts like what I wrote earlier that alienate people from science and gives the wrong impression that science is materialistic.

One more point is that most people get by without ever listening to classical music but yet enjoy other forms of music. There is just so many kinds of music that is legitimate art form, particlarly Jazz and Blues. So that makes the burden of the classical composer even greater. If the music is appealing to a particular audience the WILL accept it and listen to it...no one deliberately avoides pleasure or enjoyment!

So, art is as important, probably even more important than science. And there will always be great artists who create works that appeal to the experts and non experts alike. That is the true challenge for an aspiring artist.

cheers

Anand

Hi Dave

its been a while since I wrote on this forum, partly because of Ive been busy with work. Ive been doing a LOT of music but just nothing iready to post yet.

Now I am on vacation and have a lot of free time, so I can browse through all the posts here.

It was interesting to listen to your piece and the discussion. 

Re your piece, I liked it, but I am not yet ready to provide detailed comments. As an artist I am sure you have a reason behind every note and chord in the piece, so I find no point in my providing my own judgement. All I can say now is that the form and texture and something I am not that familiar with, so I simply enjoyed the flow. 

With pieces this long, it is very hard to maintain form. I heard that Ravel defined form as 'continued interest'. I love that definition since that underlies the motivation behind all the standard musical forms, such as sonata, rondo, passacaglia etc., ..since they all provide useful framework to maintain listener interest while avoiding banality and predictablity. I think you did a decent job of this. 

Regarding your coments about not getting feedback, I am not sure why that is surprising to you and why you would care. There is literally thousands of fantasitc music (I mean classical, long form or 'serious' music) avallable for free out there, and the listener of today has tens of thousands of pieces to chose from. I personally feel that it is the composers burden to evoke a response in the listener.. Since this is art, it is not 'essential' and the listener has a choice whether to choose a particular peice of work or not. If it were a piece of scientific work, and if it has validity , it cannot be ignored since science relates to an objective truth. There is no such thing with art. 

So if you really care about a response, maybe try to see what you could do to your music that will make it more approachable or understandable. I do not believe the size or complexity of the music has to do with how popular it can be. The hundreds of 'popular' classical works from Mozart to Stravinsky to John williams that are regularly played in concert halls are sufficient case in point, not to mention the amazing film scores of hollowood.

Even otherwise you should be happy enough that you can write music at this advaced level and be content with your achievement,  and keep writing and hoping that your works will be recognized someday.

It goes without saying that I am an amatuer and do not depend on music for a living, which i understand is a major factor. So please pardon my amateurish views. Just passing my time whiile on vacation!

Anand 

Ive been away for a while. This thread is quite interesting. I am yet to read all the comments but on the topic of live performance, I thought of sharing a section from "Music in the western world"...even Mozart was not immune to bad performances!

Hope you enjoy:

https://books.google.com/books?id=q1eobgND8H4C&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=mozart+%22to+general+applause+on+corpus+christi%22&source=bl&ots=3liW2sWtFk&sig=ACfU3U3gDPaSXEsP9Cd03H5gWvKbpii15g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj70K-w0LjjAhVVCc0KHcE4CBEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=mozart%20%22to%20general%20applause%20on%20corpus%20christi%22&f=false

Cheers

Anand

Very interesting, William. Hope to know the name of that composer (and maybe you can find his music on youtube) and discuss this subject more in a few weeks.

Anand

Hi William,

lovely peice of music. I also did not know that we could adjust temparement/tunings in VI.

I also noted other recent threads with discussions on tunings. This topic fascinates me but unfortunately I am swamped now with work for the next two weeks. But I will come back and read/listen in detail your posts in mid november.

A quick note that this topic reminded me of the book "On the sensations of tone", by Heman Helmholtz, one of the great physicists of the 19th century. The book is one of the classic treatises on the physics of sound, but he also discusses ("rants" is more appropriate, although at a very sophisticated level) for several pages about why ET is terrible and how Bach and Beethoven exploited it to their benefit!

Hope we can have a discussion about this in the near future. 

Best

Anand

Originally Posted by: Acclarion

Hi Anand,

The funny thing is, one's perception of/reception to a piece of music begins with the totality of their past musical experiences. 

Cheers!
Dave

This is very true. Given I do research on medical imaging, I got excited yesterday wondering if it is posisble to record, in some way, the variations in perception of sound/tones/music among different people.  I am sure this has been done before. But I am even more sure that we understand very very little about how the human brain perceives music. 

But I do believe that years from now, you will be able to map, for example, the brains responses to music so sensitively that you can tell if a person is listening to a classical symphony vs  Jazz vs. Rock Pop, etc.,...i.e., we will be able to directly 'see' the level of complexity in the music as revealed by regions/extent of brain simulation.

off topic again...sorry.

Cheers

Anand

Originally Posted by: Sergino Futurino

Originally Posted by: Ludwig N.

Originally Posted by: Dominique

What I don't understand: 5. clearly states that VSL can and will deactivate a lost/stolen/broken dongle. Why don't you just do that when necessary, instead of making us buy an insurance biannually? If Steinberg charges VSL for deactivation of licenses, why not just pass these fees on to the customer that needs the service when it is actually needed?

I was asking to my self the same thing

+1 

While this is better than before,  this solution doesnt make sense to me, for the above mentioned reasons.

Hi Dave

got to listen to the whole thing. I thought it was rhythmically well balanced and orchestrally very interesting. The music was alive throughout, with unexpected color or harmonic changes, so it keeps the listener enganged all the time I could give more intelligent comments after listening to it a few times.

I also did not think this was dissonant, in the sense of 20th century music that started about 100 years or so. (on that note, check this from Charlese Ives written in 1915! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT2E13p3sLw). To me yours sounds tonal, but with some dissonances, which has been common even early as Beethoven (Grosse Fugue for e.g.,)

Speaking of dissonant/complex/abstract music, you may already be familiar with other 20th century works. The Ives piece is a good example, and there are tens of other famous composers, such as Dutilliex, and recently Salonen(I once attended this concert and the soundscape blew my mind away... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HZ8ovW-STk ... I feel so lucky to be in Boston!)

I wouldnt worry about passive listeners. As long as you are enjoying what you are doing and being productive, and also getting positive feedback from many here, who cares ? :) Just keep making music. If someone really likes it they WILL listen and maybe even contact you to commission works. 

Anyways who am I to give advice?...take these as some random thoughts from an amateur.

Best

Anand

Thats true, while also sad...especially what you said about copying CDs. It looks like that there is no real way to protect music. Digital technology is as much a bane as it is a boon for music, since it allows easy reproduction, copying and distribution. With analog, at least the quality will deteriorate as we make copies unless its professionally done, so there is some motivation to get originals.

The physicists who invented semiconductors wouldve hardly realized what their discovery would lead to...computers, the internet and the end of copyright in music. 

I buy CDs since there is a feeling of guilt that it is an artists work...and not just classical. I am into Latin music (salsa) as well and often buy singles, even though most are free on YT.

Anand

Interesting thoughts. The economics of music is very interesting. Since I do not depend on music to make a living, perhaps I have the luxury of viewing this more from a consumer's perspective....and now that I have time off my other work...here goes some rambling...

I feel that selling a piece of music is the composers/artists burden. The public can be blamed to some extent for lack of taste. But there is good music in all genres being made today and they are making money. If the public does not feel inclined to listen to or pay for music, why should they? Music is supposed to entertain, after all. Of course, this depends on the intelligence of the listener. A song by Justin Beiber likely to make far more money  than a string quartet by the most leading composer of today, given the underlying marketing and the whole money-making music industry surrounding such artists who appeal to teenagers and such. But the point is that good composers today will still make a living out of the music if there is some audence. The key is to get to that audience and the best way (I feel) to do that is to make the music freely available.

If a piece of classical, or non-mainstream music is on YT or other media for free, the composer should consider it an honor that someone even came to that channel and chose to listen to it, given that nowadays there is just about every classical masterpiece from the last 300 years, and even contempoprary music, available for free on YT.

For example the entire album of Abrahmsen "Let me tell you" :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOePBfHstu4&index=1&list=PLSxhEb0B5SoaoPXTagPMJuaRRxlmEnk9t

Ive been listening to this again and again. Even though this is free on YT, I am likely to buy a CD copy so I can save it to my private collection and listen to it on hifi stereo, because I find this composition, including harmony and orchestration ,as well as the recording, performance and production absolutely fascinating, let alone the world class performers including Hannigan. I will probably also attend a live performance of the piece if it happens nearby. But the fact is that this is freely available music, yet the artists are making money through concerts and such. (I think 'Let me tell you' also won a major award). I would not have known about this work without the free medium of YT. Now multiply me by a 1000, even thats about a 100,000 dollars (assuming $100 for concert ticket + CD) in business. So free stuff generates business due to publicity.

Another thought is (which I am sure Dave and Bill know far more than me..so please take my thoughts as ignorant rambling again) why not explore film scoring? Given the extremely low quality of hollywood film scores today, I would imagine that the highly talented crowd in this forum can really make a change, given sufficient effort in networking and publicizing, to reach potentially interested directors. Again I feel that whether to like the music or not is up to the audience, and the burden of 'being liked' is on the composer, at least if he/she wants to make money out of it.

Sorry for the deviation from the main topic.  I even forgot to congratulate Dave on his excellent work and getting his scores printed.

Best

Anand

I really liked the composition..What a fantastic textural combination of exotic percussion with string quartet! Your careful use of percussion avoids it from becoming monotonous with repetitive rhythms.

The piece clearly shows your mastery of string quartet but also a deep knowledge of the other instruments used. This should totally be performed by ensembles. Any thoughts of expanding this into a larger scale piece with string quartet-like movements?

Congratulations and thanks for sharing.

Anand 

Very nice work but sorry, I was pretty distracted by how similar the opening of this is to Maurice Jarre's theme for Lawrence of Arabia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxHLzwlDY4

I can't go back to JW (even my favorite JW!) after hearing Jarre's music.

Sorry I didnt give detailed comments about your work but it sounded pretty good.

Anand

From what Ive heard so far this sounds very nice indeed!  

I am not much familiar with Weberns music, just heard some of his atonal chamber pieces which were out of my league. And this is a much more tonal. What a beautiful piece and what a great command he had over orchestral writing!

Best

Anand

You certainly got tone and transitions very well. Hope to hear the full piece someday!

I really liked the whole thing. The strings and the performance sound really great to me to me, almost like a real performance.  I dont care about distortion (much the same was as I wouldnt care for a 'distortion' froim a 1960 recording of Karajan), all I look for is fidelty to the quality of strings and natural sounding dynamcs, attach release. In fact I never thought Id be tempted to get synchron, but this clip is making me think again. 

One interesting thing about the orchestration of the final movement (starting 00:40 in your clip). While studying this many years ago I noticed how Tchaikovsky, the genius he was in part writing, split the main melody into multiple divided strings. I.e., the melody is not played by any one string group, but 'shared' across divided first and second violins. In a live rendition this would create a nice spatial effect. I wonder if you tried to emphasize that.

Anyways it was a pleasure to hear this.

Cheers

Anand

Makes sense. Thanks Jasen and Paul.

I understand VSL is not out to make us suffer and that there is a valid reason why things are the way they are.

But I am sure they will work out a good solution soon...the company is remarkably efficient and high quality in every other aspect.

Anand

P.S. btw Jasen your signature quote is funny....not sure what he really meant by that.

Originally Posted by: jasensmith

Actually it isn't apt at all.  Remember, we're dealing with intellectaul property here not tangible items like a car.  When you purchase a library license, you're not purchasing the library itself, your purchasing permission to use it.

The car analogy would be better, although not completey accurate, if it was, you're not buying a car you're buying permission to use it.  So you can use that car anytime you want and drive anywhere you want but there are some restrictions like you can't use it for ride sharing such as Uber or Lyft.

Don't get me wrong Anand, I'm not a cheerleader for this dongle system and judging from some of the recent posts by VSL representatives they are not fans of it either but the reason it has gone on for so long must be because the alternatives are just not satisfactory to VSL upper management. Or, there is something in the works it just hasn't been finalized yet.  But for the record, I am not in favor of an online verification system. Sorry but in my particular situation it would be just too much of a hassle.   If VSL can provide some options for people in my situation then fine but I hope that whatever they have in the works isn't dependant on the Internet.

Ok. Even with the 'permission to use' car analogy, if I paid money for the permission, and I lose they key, wouldnt it be more fair if I just need to buy a replacement key rather than an entire replacement of the permission?

Anyways, I understood later that the need for purchasing licenses at 50% arises only for lost dongles. I initially thougth it applies to damaged dongles that are out of the 2 year waranty as well.  What I understand now is that if I have a damaged key that is out of warranty period, I can pay for a new key and reactivate the license at 20 euros/license, which I can live with. Hope I am correct in that.

Anand

What a fantastic piece! Thank you.

I also liked this note in the demo page: "This piece can actually be played with 2 hands!"

It is also amazing that this was done with a ~$150 piece of orchestral software! Goes a long way to show that software cannot be blamed for lack of realism...all depends on the musical skill of the user, not the budget (This is a note to myself to stop complaining about the quality of samples)

Aside, I wish Hollywood hired you instead of HZ or his clones (ooops...sorry I almost uttered the Z word!). 

Best

Anand

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos

Thanks Anand!

For sure, Rach was a big inspiration, no hiding in that. 

About writing a complete concerto, well it might not be seen as something original enough to attrack concert pianists, I don't know, or would it?  I'd have to add a ton of dissonances... :) 

I am sure you can throw in dissonances and resolve them as well :). Anyways I hope you would someday write a full concerto at least with VSL for all of us to enjoy.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos

Glad it sounded good on headphones, I didn't try it with headphones, but your headphones must very sensitive cause I can'thear anything at 5:28 from my speakers. So no, it's not some hall noise effect, besides I don't believe that chair sounds and all the other noises do anything to make a piece sound more natural. 

I actually checked it a few more times and I do hear the ambient sound...(its a pretty short one, much like a pedal being released lightly), and in fact I hear it at more than one place: at 5:03 and 5:16 as well. Not that it matters to the music at all, but I am curious where this is coming from and if anyone else can hear it. 

(I agree it doesnt make the music more natural but when I said it adds to the realism...I meant that it gives the impression it was a live recording, as if you are sitting in the hall.)

Best

Anand

Just heard the full piece. And  .... Wow! This sounds like Rachmaninoff just woke up from the dead and wrote it! (I mean that as a compliment...not implying that you arent original.).

Guy, why don't you please write a full piano concerto with this as a central movement ?

What is astounding is that this is not only a first-rate composition in the style of early to mid 20th century romantic (hope I am correct...not very thorough with music history!) , but also performed beautifully by the composer himself on the piano. On top of that the composer did all the sequencing and production with software. That is like six professions rolled into one. Hats off to you!

I often find that sampled music sounds much better in headphones than in speakers...(not sure why), so I listened to this piece in my good speakers as as stronger test of fidelty, and it sounded very realistic. You hide any shortcomings of samples so well.

Around 5:28, I hear something sounding like a foot pedal release or some other acoustic, hall noise. So Id make a wild guess that you recorded it live in your studio ;) Or did you deliberately put that in??! Anyways that ambient noise adds a nice touch of realism

So glad to be in the company of some outstanding composers on this forum (Guy, William, Errikos, Mike Hewer and more). Hope I learn something from here, someday.

Cheers

Anand

Originally Posted by: agitato

One question.

Suppose the key is not lost but somehow gets damaged, say by fire, or simply stops working. (USBs do fail eventually, you know...)

I would imagine that atleast in this scenario, VSL can provide a duplicate license on a new key, provided we mail in the old key to show evidence that no one else can use it.

Please tell me this is true. If not, I will stop buying any more VSL products, since this would mean that my investment is tied to a piece of electronic component that is bound to fail sooner or later.

Anand

Sorry, I did find an answer to my question earlier in this thread, but it still is pretty disappointing. So, essentially we need to buy a key every 2 years to stay within the warranty...and all this is only to cover non accidental failure to the dongle.

Sounds pretty arcane to me, if not cruel. My sympathies to the poor folks who lost the key and spent 1000s more. I am puzzled how this is legal and VSL is getting away with it?  Looks like daylight robbery! If I buy a product I must own it without having to pay for it again and again, period. The analogy someone gave with a car is quite apt. 

I have lost keys from other libraries such as EastWest, and all I had to do was buy a new key and they issued a new license number based on the products that I had. That way the old license numbers would become invalid.

Pretty sure something like that can be worked out. Considering that VSL is such an outstanding company and product in EVERY other aspect including customer service,  I am amazed you havent solved this simple issue.

As I thought more about this, another paradox confounds me. I do not understand why the hardware warranty should be linked to the software license? So you say that if we buy a new dongle every 2 years, you can replace with a new one and install the licenses on that provided we send the old one etc.,. Now why should this have anything to do with whether we have a hardware warranty or not? To be more clear, suppose that I did not have the warranty and I my dongle fails, what is preventing you from doing a similar license transfer assuming I pay for a new dongle (given I dont have the warranty)? 

Mysterious logic!

Anand

P.S. Reading Paul's post I do realize you are working on a solution. I am sure you can and will solve this....

[updated post]

Yes it modulates to G indeed for the second theme in the sonata form, but then again works mostly with I IV V in G until it comes back to the tonic. Still, he produces so much interesting stuff just with these 'basic' chords. One of my favorite pieces (among the few I know) to play.

Funny you noted some cards of Beato were wrong, I wasn't quick to catch that. Beato is an interesting guy. I watch him more out of amusement for his energy than musical content. 

Anand

True that the four chords themselves are not to blame. Probably most of Mozart's sonatas or symphonies at least start with I IV vi V....this sonata repeats these for almost the entire introduction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpDkOuZPktc

No one can complain about this music!

Speaking of film music, I recently say 'Get out' and was quite impressed by the sound track. I thought the film hugely benefited from the score. It ranged from beautiful African music to advanced orchestral techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw6xiakKpXE

Some of the tracks are so scary I cant listen to them even by themselves.

Refreshing to hear anything other than the repetitive crap that pervades movies today, popularized by 'you know who'.

Anand

I found this video hilarious (makes fun of how most pop songs use the same four chords) and thought this forum might enjoy it as a break from relatively 'heavy' music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuGt-ZG39cU

Cheers 

Anand